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GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 21:49 UTC (Mon) by spot (subscriber, #15640)Parent article: GStreamer's MP3 for Linux
I doubt that Fedora will include the binary only component because it would be a major break from existing standards.
Fedora Core and Fedora Extras currently only include free, and unencumbered open source packages. The binary only mp3 component would not meet this criteria.
We do mind this "little fact", as it is the underlying foundation for open source development. If Linus had been tolerant of using the Minix kernel without source, would we be where we are today? If Richard had decided that he didn't need to share the source code for his utilities?
What if Red Hat took this same stance towards RHEL, and didn't release any of the source code packages? Would it still be a "little fact"?
It's not that hard to add mp3 support to Fedora post-install, the internet is covered in easy to find documentation and prepackaged rpms. But for Fedora to endorse a closed source world? No thanks. It just puts us farther away from where we want to be, and tells software patent holders (and large hardware companies) that binary only components are good enough. This is Arjan Van de Ven's slippery slope: http://lwn.net/Articles/162686/
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GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:09 UTC (Mon) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]
Note that there's no "binary only component", just a patent-licensed binary and the MIT licensed source to go with it. You can use the patent-licensed binary from Fluendo, or if your distributor signs a distribution agreement with Fluendo, a patent-licensed binary built by them. In all cases, the code is 100% Open Source.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:16 UTC (Mon) by piman (subscriber, #8957) [Link]
The point is that, since only the binary is patent-licensed, it does no good for free software. I can't link it to GPLd software. And if I choose to "risk" violating the patent, I can just use MAD, which is a better decoder than this.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:21 UTC (Mon) by spot (subscriber, #15640) [Link]
The limits on redistribution would tend not to make it open source compatible. Breaks clause #1 of the OSI definition:
"1. Free Redistribution
The license shall not restrict any party from selling or giving away the software as a component of an aggregate software distribution containing programs from several different sources. The license shall not require a royalty or other fee for such sale."
In addition, Fluendo doesn't have permission to grant patent-licensing to anyone besides themselves:
"Fluendo has got the relevant licenses to cover its own
activities with the Source Code but it is not authorized to
sublicense nor to grant the rights which it has acquired over
the patents. In this sense, you can work and deal freely with
the Source Code under MIT provisions set out above, bearing in
mind that some activities might not be allowed under
applicable patent regulations and that Fluendo is not granting
any rights in relation to such patents."
So, you can look at the source code, but not legally use patent infringing code without a license from the patent-holder (Thomson). So even the "patent-licensed" binary isn't really kosher in the US (other parts of the world vary).
Believe me, I'd love to have legal, uninfringing, open source mp3 playback, but this isn't it.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:42 UTC (Mon) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]
Well, firstly - this is the patent-license for the binary, not the source. The code is MIT licensed, and thus, 100% Open Source. Sure, Fluendo can't grant permission to distribute binaries based on random use of the MIT code - you must enter into a contract with Fluendo to receive a patent license.
MP3 is hard. Patent licenses are hard. Here, at least, is a legal option for those who care about solving the problem legally, and with fairly minimal intrusion for users and distributors... *if* reality means more to you than some of the more abstract notions of software freedom (ie. if you were being serious about software freedom, you wouldn't be using MP3 in the first place).
MAD has a serious problem: Look at its license (GPL), then read section 7 of it. Bad news for everyone.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:47 UTC (Mon) by piman (subscriber, #8957) [Link]
> MAD has a serious problem: Look at its license (GPL), then read section 7 of it. Bad news for everyone.
Of course, most MP3-playing software is also under the GPL. Most useful software on GNU/Linux is under the GPL, period. So regardless of this plugin's license, if you distribute this plugin with software the end result is probably going to be under the GPL.
Jon mentioned this in the article -- Rhythmbox has no license exception yet, and I'm fairly sure Muine doesn't either. I'm less sure about amaroK, but at least its debian/copyright file doesn't have an exception.
So you can't actually ship the plugin with any of the major GStreamer-based music players. It solves nothing.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 23:07 UTC (Mon) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]
Sure, no argument: You can't distribute the plugin with a GPL user of it. That puts the responsibility on users - and they can do whatever they wish, because they're not distributing it. So even with GPL software on top, the plugin has a good use case, which it solves legally and well.
MAD being licensed under the GPL is another story: It is incompatible with itself and not distributable at all. Read section 7.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 3, 2006 1:19 UTC (Tue) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link]
Section 7 of the GPL means that people in countries where the MP3 patents apply to software (for example, the USA) cannot distribute GPL MP3 code. However, it does not constrain those in countries where software patents are not yet valid. This means that, for now, sites like livna do not violate the GPL, even if they allow Americans to access them, and Americans downloading MP3 support from sites like livna aren't violating the GPL, though they may be infringing patents by using the code.In practice, though, only the copyright holder can enforce a GPL violation, and they won't in this case, so the only danger is from the patent infringement. And that applies to MP3 code regardless of license.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 11, 2006 20:00 UTC (Wed) by pimlott (subscriber, #1535) [Link]
Section 7 of the GPL means that people in countries where the MP3 patents apply to software (for example, the USA) cannot distribute GPL MP3 code.Interpretations of Section 7 have gotten mad! This statement is as misleading as
Section 7 of the GPL means that you cannot distribute the code you stole by hacking into Microsoft under the GPL.Neither is legal, but not because of Section 7. Indeed, the GPL itself considers Section 7 a no-op:
This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License.A summary of Section 7 would be:
If you cannot distribute a body of code under the GPL, you cannot distribute the code under the GPL.A shorter summary would be:
True.I'm being extreme--probably Section 7 has some legal significance. However, I don't believe that it forbids distribution in any cases where it would otherwise be allowed. I know that Eben Moglen has said or suggested otherwise, but I haven't heard a plausible explanation. And to be clear, I consider the "for example" in Section 7 a complete non-sequitur.
reality & freedom
Posted Jan 3, 2006 1:39 UTC (Tue) by pjm (subscriber, #2080) [Link]
The previous poster suggests that the availability of this binary is clearly a win in real terms, but this is far from clear in the longer term.
It would clearly be contradictory to think that software freedoms have no connection with reality: each of the freedoms in question is in the physical world, reality.
Inability to share this binary among others is one real-world result. Other real-world harms come from perpetuating the idea that it is wrong to help one's neighbour by sharing one's software.
Inability to modify the source and use the resulting different binary has yet other harms: for example it is harder to take advantage of bug fixes & feature improvements of others.
Additional convenience in using the mp3 format reduces the rate of transition to better formats. Thus, Fluendo might instead consider distributing a command-line utility to convert mp3 files to better formats (allowing separate, unencumbered, gui interfaces to that tool). This would have more chance of helping the transition to other formats; whereas a gstreamer plugin will clearly reduce this transition.
Paying the patent license fee and slowing down the transition to better formats each increase monetary payments to the patent holder, and increase the attractiveness of patenting things (to the detriment of everyone else), increasing the likelihood of future patent harm.
Of course this binary does provide real-world benefit as well: one immediate benefit of easing the playing of some music files, and future benefits through increasing the use of other free software for people who would use mp3 software no matter what.
reality & freedom
Posted Jan 3, 2006 15:30 UTC (Tue) by Felix.Braun (subscriber, #3032) [Link]
Can Fluendo also write a program that lets me play vorbis files on my portable media player? Didn't think so.
Of course, people who care about software freedom could vote with their euros and buy media players that do play vorbis. But try telling that to the novice computer users that some linux distributions are trying to attract. To these people software freedom looks like an inhibition to use gadgets that run quite well under competing setups.
So, by lowering the inhibitions to such users, Fluendo is arguably helping Linux adoption by a wider public. Which might even help convince hardware vendors to support alternative audio formats in their firmware.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 3, 2006 13:06 UTC (Tue) by rickmoen (subscriber, #6943) [Link]
jdub wrote:The code is MIT licensed, and thus, 100% Open Source.
Sorry, Jeff; that doesn't follow. Being under an OSI-approved licence is necessary but not sufficient to make the codebase open source. Additionally, source code must be actually available (which is true in this case, but needn't be the case for somethine merely declared to be "MIT licensed"), and there must not be external legal obstacles preventing exercise of the rights in that OSI-approved licence.
Such as, notably, patents.
Thus, in parts of the world where such a codebase is patent-encumbered (rights not exercisable on account of patent-based restrictions), it's proprietary by definition, as long as those conditions persist.
That's not to say I might not, in some cases, ignore a patent I felt to be either meritless or basically harmless. But it's simply wrong to say that the licence terms are all that matter. No, it's those terms and the ability to exercise them that matter.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 3, 2006 16:48 UTC (Tue) by ranger (guest, #6415) [Link]
Such as, notably, patents.Thus, in parts of the world where such a codebase is patent-encumbered (rights not exercisable on account of patent-based restrictions), it's proprietary by definition, as long as those conditions persist.
By your definition, the Linux kernel is proprietary, since it includes patent-encumbered code (such as RCU).
But, the Linux kernel is not proprietary, and considered Open Source (and Free Software etc etc).
Why?
Because of the license IBM has granted for the use of the RCU code, which most people agree has acceptable conditions.
So, the real issue is whether the Linux distribution in question is agreeable with any license terms on an MP3 decoding license.
For example, Mandriva has negotiated with Thompson that it (and others using any Mandriva-based distribution for a non-embedded device) may provide royalty-free MP3-decoding, so MP3 playback works out-the-box.
While it would be nice to have a policy on this in each Linux distribution, people are still arguing the wrong points in this thread.
If you don't want any patent-encumbered code, better not run a 2.6 kernel.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 3, 2006 17:07 UTC (Tue) by rickmoen (subscriber, #6943) [Link]
"ranger" wrote:But, the Linux kernel is not proprietary, and considered Open Source (and Free Software etc etc). Why? Because of the license IBM has granted for the use of the RCU code, which most people agree has acceptable conditions.
You seem unaware that you are actually in strenous agreement with me -- presumably because you didn't read what I wrote attentively.
Allow me to reiterate: "patent-encumbered (rights not exercisable on account of patent-based restrictions)" and "external legal obstacles preventing exercise of the rights".
I'm extremely well aware that by no means does the mere existence of an applicable patent (or other legal encumbrance) does not, in itself, preclude exercise of open-source licensing rights. My comments concerned particular patent encumbrances (and other legal obstances) that do happen to be imposed in a fashion that blocks exercise of those rights.
You, unfortunately, didn't notice that I'd already carefully observed that (elementary) distinction in my post, which is why I'm now obliged to waste time repeating myself. Oh well.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:17 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link]
Arjan's "slippery slope" has little to do with this plugin. The binary nature is not meant to hide anything from the user, stop them from recompiling the plugin, stop them from redistributing the plugin's source, or anything like that. The patent holders require that binary MP3 decoders be licensed. This plugin makes it possible to legally (in many countries) ship MP3 support.
Also keep in mind that every single one of those "easy to install" Fedora MP3 add ons are (1) in no way easy to install unless you're a Linux dork with nothing interesting to do with your life besides sit in front of a computer and learn how things like yum and rpm work, and (b) are all illegal in many countries, including the the USA.
The only "easy to install" that actually exists is "already installed and configured." If the distribution doesn't come with MP3 support enabled in its default media player(s), then there many/most users are not ever going to get MP3 support, and are likely to just blame Linux since "it sucks and can't even play MP3s" and will use a [non-free] OS that actually "works."
This plugin from Fluendo can also be a vehicle to achieve Freedom. Assuming you want to do things legally (which many large companies sure as heck do, not to mention some overly-honest/anti-anarchist home users), this plugin from Fluendo is the only way to digitally convert an existing set of MP3s into unencumbered formats such as Vorbis.
Finally, this plugin is also a decoder *only*. Fluendo is not releasing an MP3 encoder under this terms, as they do not want users to either intentionally or inadvertantly create new content in an encumbered format.
The plugin exists to assist in migration to a Free platform and to unencumbered formats. Even if some do consider the plugin a "slippery slope," it's the *only* [legal] slope available to many people.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 2, 2006 22:29 UTC (Mon) by spot (subscriber, #15640) [Link]
There are distribution restrictions, and Fedora would have to ship a binary without matching source code. This is ignoring the legal issues raised in the above comment. Of course, IANAL, so the Fedora Foundation legal team might think its all fine and dandy (but I seriously doubt it).
I'm not convinced that the Fluendo plugin is legal in a Fedora distribution without Fedora (re: Red Hat) paying for the patent license from Thomson, since Fluendo doesn't have the ability to "resell" the patent license.
This is also a slippery slope in that it tells Thomson that their practice of collecting royalties on software patents is ok. It opens the door to all sorts of binary components going into the distribution, because they "work"... and then we're no better than Windows.
I know that this sucks for end-users, but we can either sweep this under the rug, or stand for open source principles.
GStreamer's MP3 for Linux: Thanks, but no thanks.
Posted Jan 3, 2006 15:23 UTC (Tue) by Uraeus (guest, #33755) [Link]
To clarify something in regards to our abilility to 'resell' our patent license. We have the ability to let our business partners redistribute our plugin with their products. So anyone who signs a contract with us can freely redistribute our plugin with their own products. The 'reselling' part you are mentioning is that we of course can't give everyone the same right we have, meaning that people could sign a contract with us, then have other people sign contracts with them and so on. Everyone have to either sign a contract with us to distribute our plugin, or get a contract with Thomson/Fruenhoffer to distribute their own plugin (which they could build from the source we provide).
Christian Schaller