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GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 19:08 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465)In reply to: GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition by jdub
Parent article: GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Maybe you're right about some of these points having been addressed. If
it's not usability and not confusing users that you're after, than what
is it exactly?
One of the reasons KDE continues to be such a joy for me is because of
how many features are hiding right under the covers. I often discover
them by thinking at some random moment, "Wouldn't it be cool if I could
-- wow! They thought of that and implemented it! Way cool". In that
moment I've just discovered that I can detach tabs in Konqueror. Or get
Wiki feeds about my artists as I'm listening to music in amaroK. Or one
of hundreds of other things that makes my computing experience a joy and
doesn't get in my way.
Honestly - every time I use GNOME I just end up getting let down. I'll
admit that I put it on my teenage sister's laptop (she's not a computer
person)... but that was more because I had an old Ubuntu CD laying
around.
She loves Linux - likes it better than Windows (and has since expressed
interest in try KDE after seeing me use it). But little things just annoy
you. One in particular I remember - she nudged her Synaptics touchpad too
much and the GNOME top bar or whatever it's called ended up right-aligned
with HUGE quick-launch icons. I couldn't for the life of me figure out
anywhere on that panel to right-click in order to get to the screen I
needed to in order to get it re-aligned. In the end, I had to delete all
the quick-launch icons to make room to click through to the panel. This
exercise took me 10-15 minutes of frustration, and I'm a goddamned
programmer! All of my intuition about the ways to control the thing you
guys *might* have thought of were useless, whereas generally in KDE if I
have an intuition they might have implemented some random feature,
chances are I'm right and it's there, more powerful than I imagined.
I don't mean to just slam on GNOME, but once again, what's your goal? Why
is GNOME software often so much less desireable / powerful than KDE
counterparts? Why do my GNOME-using friends use Konqueror and K3B and
amaroK and Kaffeine, using GNOME for nothing more than the pretty window
decorations? I run one GTK app - GAIM. And occasionally when I go to send
someone a file, I get reminded of how much I hate some of your project's
decisions about the UI. The moment all the IM clients decide to support a
common encryption standard, GAIM will be leaving my desktop (unless GTK
apps magically start looking / working better by then).
Perhaps Linus (and myself) are totally wrong about GNOME devs being
motivated by "not confusing users". Why have you excluded all useful
functionality then?
(Log in to post comments)
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 19:17 UTC (Tue) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]
What's our goal? To bring software freedom - and the deeper freedoms it defends - to the 99.999% of people around the world who don't care about computing technology quite as much as we do.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 19:23 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]
Mine too. Now in the process, can you guys make your GNOME desktop alittle more functional and powerful so that it doesn't feel like I'm
using an airport kiosk?
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 19:37 UTC (Tue) by jdub (subscriber, #27) [Link]
Perhaps some constructive feedback may actually get you where you want to go.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 20:05 UTC (Tue) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link]
Well, my apologies for stepping over the line a bit with that last post.The airport kiosk remark is just the best describing remark I've come up
with after tinkering with GNOME a few times in between spans on KDE over
the years. (IIRC, my earliest time spent running around on an actual
Linux *desktop* was Red Hat 5 or 6).
My biggest criticism (is this constructive?) of GNOME is that every app
and dialog feels like it was deliberately reduced from what it could have
been. In some cases, this is genius and the dialog is simple / elegant /
pretty. But way too often does it simply get in the way (Your file picker
is a *big* example - why won't it let me sort by file type and why isn't
it immediately evident that I can type a location?)
If GNOME stood alone on the desktop market, I think it would be a great
desktop. The fact is that it stands next to KDE, and even though I admire
your looks and in *some* places the simplicity, any time I spend any
length of time at all in GNOME I come away frustrated after X number of
important things appear to have been intentionally excluded. (X is
porportional to the amount of time I spend on GNOME)
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 20:42 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
I only learned about the `Ctrl-L to type' thing by following that mailing list thread. Affordances in GNOME are frequently absolutely *awful*, even in very widely-used common dialogs.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 5:17 UTC (Wed) by zlynx (subscriber, #2285) [Link]
In my opinion, Gnome shouldn't even have a file picker. Saving a document should just ask for a name and drop it in a default location. After that you can put it somewhere different with Nautilus. Opening a document shouldn't even get a dialog: open it from Nautilus or drag and drop it.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 11:45 UTC (Wed) by csamuel (subscriber, #2624) [Link]
Gah, do that and I'll give up helping the folks I know who use GNOME getthemselves out of trouble!
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 13:58 UTC (Wed) by mauvaisours (subscriber, #6130) [Link]
Have you learned about this useful little thing called "Folders" that helps you organize what you do ?
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 22:25 UTC (Thu) by emj (guest, #14307) [Link]
Well you are right in one sense, what should a user do in the root? You really should have everything in your home directory, perhaps in the "my Documents" folder. Or even better let people "tag" their files, and make it a database.
On bigger multiuser system it's even worse, have you ever tried to find the account of your friend John in the local /afs.. "Now was is /afs/fnord.se/homes/h/dk/sf/u2313n23? I can't really remmeber... "
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 27, 2005 23:05 UTC (Tue) by quintesse (subscriber, #14569) [Link]
"why isn't it immediately evident that I can type a location?"
OMG!!! Do you know how many times I screamed at that stupid dialog because I thought I couldn't enter a location?
I positively hate hidden functionality and think all GUIs should be "discoverable" which means that you should be able to learn at least 99% of its functionality just by "looking around".
I find that most of the time for me Gnome either does not have the functionality I want or they have hidden it so well that even I as a very experienced user can't find it.
But it's not only Gnome, I love Firefox for example but I still miss some of the settings that you could find in the Mozilla preferences. I want a button "Trust me, I know what I'm doing" that show me all those option pages they removed! (And please, do NOT tell me about about:config!!)
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 23:16 UTC (Tue) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]
One of the big things I have to do for customers is to turn off the spatial perspective in nautilus. People hate having to close 15 windows as they went searching for something in their directory tree structure.. but every time I and others mention it.. its that we arent understanding what we should do.. Here is a sample of what multiple customers have complained about:
Well I am just wanting to open up a document that I filed away in the way that I wanted, but I when I have finished opening up
Desktop
Work Documents
Project XYZ
2005
Work Orders
I now have 4 windows I dont want to stay open and 2 that I do.. so I end up spending a lot of time closing stuff.
[And switching to 'classic' mode makes everything look like it is GNOME-0.8 and not as featured as the KDE desktop.]
I currently use GNOME, but I am coming this close to switching over to KDE even if it means being a third class citizen on Fedora.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 6:55 UTC (Wed) by Mithrandir (subscriber, #3031) [Link]
Agreed. At least my default desktop distro (Ubuntu) has made that change for me. :)
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 8:25 UTC (Wed) by heini (subscriber, #33614) [Link]
One simple thing: You mentioned this doctor w/o computer knowledge.Imagine it was a german doctor, who simply would like to see his desktop
in german language. I am a KDE user and when I start KDE the first time, a
configuration wizard pops up where the very first thing I can choose is
the language.
Now on to Gnome (or XFCE). Whenever a new version is released, I try it
out. I am not asked to choose my language. I spend 15 to 30 minutes to
find out how to change it to german (other than setting some ENV vars, I
know how to do that). I finally give up and stay with KDE, and so will the
german doctor, he doesn't know how to set ENV vars.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 20:12 UTC (Wed) by Los__D (subscriber, #15263) [Link]
GDM, choose the language before you log in... Now that was hard, huh?
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 7:15 UTC (Thu) by heini (subscriber, #33614) [Link]
You really think this is a good idea, don't you?No other display manager out there let's you choose the language,
because it's simply stupid to put it there.
1) This locks Gnome users to using GDM, but what if they have no
control over what display manager is used (because it's not their
machine)?
2) You have to re-login to change the language.
3) What if you don't use any display manager at all?
So this makes the situation even more worse, sorry.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 9:48 UTC (Thu) by Los__D (subscriber, #15263) [Link]
1) I expected you wanted the whole package.2) New user = new login... Or are we schizo here?
3) If you don't use a display manager, you'd mostly be a shell user (Or one of those strange people who login with the text console and do a startx as the only command there), and used to LC_LANG if you want another language.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 10:33 UTC (Thu) by dvdeug (subscriber, #10998) [Link]
Changing the display manager is simply not possible for anyone using a multiuser system where the admin doesn't use Gnome. And it gets real tiring when every program expects that you're running the whole system; is it that unreasonable to try and choose the better program instead of the one from GNOME?
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 16, 2005 17:47 UTC (Fri) by cortana (subscriber, #24596) [Link]
Surely you always have to re-login to change the language: a process may only alter its own environment, and anyway translated strings are usually loaded by an application at startup, and never altered.
I do agree that there should be some kind of regional settings option in the preferences menu that would allow one to change the value of LANG. LANGUAGE and the various LC_* variables that will be used the next time one logs in.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 14, 2005 20:26 UTC (Wed) by aigarius (subscriber, #7329) [Link]
I am a programmer, but I still want my desktop to "just work". I do not want to configure things - I have work to do. Maybe sometimes there is an option missing, but the time I spend configuring my desktop is tiny compared to time I spend working. If there are more options - I will spend more time on useless configuration just because I *have to* look through all the options.I am all on Gnome about this one - if you want to work, just work and forget about configuring.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 7:41 UTC (Thu) by pascal.martin (subscriber, #2995) [Link]
I am in a similar situation, except for a few things:- Gnome removed some of the options I did setup. I felt cheated.
- Despite its "keep it simple" mantra, Gnome has become really heavy.
- Gnome has had a tendency to forget my config on upgrade (debian specific?)
As logon time kept increasing, the frustration of not being able to restore my config convinced me to switch to Xfce:
- Xfce is simple and has not much more options than Gnome,
- but it starts much faster and takes up less memory.
- It tends to loose the user's config less often (your mileage may vary).
- It still use GTK (I don't like C++, the language made complicated so to maximize memory leaks :-)
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 15, 2005 15:23 UTC (Thu) by mightyduck (subscriber, #23760) [Link]
Oh, come on, this is just BS. Nobody forces you to look through allavailable config options, you don't *have to*. I use KDE and I never scan
the whole control center and go through all the options. I have maybe a
handful of things I change on a new system (like "focus follows mouse"
for instance) and then I'm able to work. But if for some reason I decide
to tweak some option because my habit changed or I discovered a more
practical way of doing things I know the option is there and I can easily
find and change it.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 23, 2005 4:54 UTC (Fri) by obi (guest, #5784) [Link]
Maybe it's BS for you, but you seem to think that everyone thinks like you. I agree with the parent - seeing boatloads of options just irk me. And this visual annoyance happens every time I have to search for an option. And I always feel something is set up "wrong", but I don't know what (maybe I'm paranoid).
I'm a programmer too, and I do appreciate Gnome's "not-in-your-face"-ness. Yes, there is some functionality missing, but I'm willing to bet it's not by design, but simply because they didn't get round to it yet, or in the worst case that it's not really a high priority.
Every time I try KDE, I appreciate the polish and some great technology, but I just can't cope with the UI feel for a very long time. Considering how many pro-KDE comments there were, I can see not everyone feels the same way as me. It just goes to show that it's good there are choices, and I'd encourage all the desktop projects out there to continue finding their unique identity.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 20:43 UTC (Tue) by proski (subscriber, #104) [Link]
Where did you get that 99.999% number? Many people care about computing technology, they just care about different aspects of it. I think that the 99.999% myth is used as an excuse for lazy programming. You may be surprised how much a designer cares about color quality of the monitor or how much a helicopter pilot cares about real time properties of the flight control software.
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 22:28 UTC (Tue) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link]
Those users don't care about either of those things.
They just care that the computer does what they need. The details of how it does it is irrelevant to them. They especially do not want to have to learn how to edit rc files or memorize patterns of double-click icon -> right-click interface -> select Options -> select Advanced tab -> click Computer button -> check checkbox -> click OK or so on.
The designer wants an efficient application for doing their work, and they want to be able to ensure colors are correct, preferably by using a likewise efficient and simple tool. They do not want to need 12 steps to do it, either.
The pilot likewise couldn't give a crap about how the software works. He just wants to know that it works. Whether it's well-written real-time software or a staving kid in a box with a chalkboard and an abacus is entirely unimportant, so long as the helicopter stays up in the air and goes where the pilot wants it to.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 13, 2005 20:18 UTC (Tue) by mgb (subscriber, #3226) [Link]
>One of the reasons KDE continues to be such a joy for me is because of>how many features are hiding right under the covers.
Yesterday I had a problem with an application window that had content off the right side and resizing disabled. It took ten seconds of clicking to discover some KDE controls which allowed me to temporarily override the window size. Right click title bar - Advanced - Special Window Settings - Geometry. Exactly where any logical person would look for them.
And the Qt libraries are just as logical. GUI programming is easy and fun with Qt. GTK may be easier than Xlibs, but its nowhere near as productive as Qt.
We've started with the default Gnome in several distros but always become frustrated and switched to KDE. Now we always install Kubuntu - on our own systems and for our clients.
And yet: Long live Gnome! Competition helps both.
--Mike Bird
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 13, 2005 22:06 UTC (Tue) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]
For comparison, where does other window managers put that control? How would you go about doing the same thing in Gnome?
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 14, 2005 6:00 UTC (Wed) by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385) [Link]
Historically I've reconfigured all the window managers I've used for more than a few hours such that they don't understand the "disallow resize" window hint to begin with. Sometimes the "reconfiguration" is done by editing the config files...you know the ones...every window manager has them...they typically come in a big tarball, and you edit the ones ending in ".c", then type "make" or something similar to update the WM config. ;_)
Hints that disable window controls seem kind of silly to me. Putting on my naive-user hat for a moment, I expect that if you can resize one window, you can resize any and all windows. Actually, before I actually used a Macintosh for the first time many years ago, I had read about user interfaces and I assumed that you'd be able to pretty much move, edit, and resize anything you like in any application while it was running. Needless to say, I've been disappointed with everything that has come since.
IMHO, applications that can't cope with window resize at all (e.g. those that behave in some anti-social or useless way when the WM blithely ignores the application and reconfigures its window anyway) should have some kind of default panning or scaling behavior imposed on them, preferably transparently so that the clueless application has no idea this is happening. The only reasonable excuse for disabling WM controls would be in an airport-kiosk type of situation--in which case it would make more sense to disable the controls globally in the window manager, so having the application WM hints makes no sense in that situation either.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 14, 2005 7:27 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
Every WM respects at least one hint to disable controls: the transience property. As long as you have to support that, why not make the control more configurable?
Hints
Posted Dec 14, 2005 14:19 UTC (Wed) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link]
That hint doesn't really mean to do that, it just means the window is associated with another application window and that it is likely to be short-lived. In fact, some window managers don't disable controls on transients. Many do, but there is no requirement that they work that way.
Hints
Posted Dec 14, 2005 20:16 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
The vast majority that provide any decorations at all disable them on transients: in fact, given the common use of transients for things like pop-up help bubbles, any wm that didn't disable decorations on them would be unbearable to use.
Hints
Posted Dec 14, 2005 23:45 UTC (Wed) by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385) [Link]
Pop-up help bubbles (and menus and drag+drop handles and other weird window cases) usually use override_redirect, not wm_transient.
I don't see a reason why transients (even real transients like dialog boxes) should not be organized or decorated differently--in fact, I think that's usually a good idea. The thing I insist on is that I retain the ability to arbitrarily move, size, raise and lower them (including the often-denied privilege of restacking a dialog window behind its parent, and independently minimizing parents and transients), regardless of decoration or initial position.
I do see many cases where the transient windows *themselves* are often a bad idea, but that's application misdesign that a window manager can't fix.
I've used truly hintless window managers (ones that don't move the keyboard focus from parent to transient and place the transient randomly, so I have to aim at the appropriate window with the mouse cursor for every single transient) and hintful window managers (ones that respect all of the hints to the letter and even impose restrictions of their own). If these were the only choices (thankfully they're not) then I'd pick the hintless WM, because it's at least possible to sensibly arrange windows with the hintless WM, even if I have to do a lot of extra work manually.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 14, 2005 3:55 UTC (Wed) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link]
People often comment that QT is more productive than Gtk, yet the only big QT apps I use are scribus and qcad (and both rarely). On the other hand, we have the gimp, inkscape, abiword, gnumeric and gnucash; none of which have comparable QT versions. Maybe it is just the company I keep, but most of the top notch programmers I know prefer Gtk. Why is that do you think?
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 14, 2005 15:05 UTC (Wed) by cloose (subscriber, #5066) [Link]
On the other hand, we have the gimp, inkscape, abiword, gnumeric and gnucash; none of which have comparable QT versions.
IMHO it the success of the corresponding KDE apps (krita, kword, kspread, kmymoney) that lowers the interest in writing Qt equivalents for those apps.
Maybe it is just the company I keep, but most of the top notch programmers I know prefer Gtk. Why is that do you think?
Maybe you're only looking for/attracting C programmers? I'm a C++/Java/Delphi programmer and I would never ever use a OO in C API.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 7:11 UTC (Thu) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link]
I had a look at koffice recently and though I was impressed by the progress, none of them are close to their gtk equivalents. kspread, for example, couldn't open a few computational excel spreadsheets I've collected over the years, yet gnumeric had no trouble. Karbon's renderer seems to generate wrong results regularly and couldn't open even some simple svg diagrams. The connector routing in kivio is crap compared to that of inkscape. Krita feels like gimp 1.4, though my wife prefers the oil paint effect in krita :)
Actually, it may be unfair, but the feeling I get from the koffice suite is that they are mainly playing catch up to their gtk counterparts and have just lifted chunks of code wholus-bolus (nothing wrong with this, but it makes me wonder what their aim is).
If you are a C++ programmer you should take a look at gtkmm. It is a lot more C++ than QT. Murray Cumming has done a much better job of understanding the C++ paradigm (ouch, did I just use that word..) than the Troll developers. And the people I'm talking about tend to program in more esoteric languages (they would say 'real languages') such as Haskell, ocaml and Mercury.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 8:25 UTC (Thu) by cloose (subscriber, #5066) [Link]
If you are a C++ programmer you should take a look at gtkmm. It is a lot more C++ than QT. Murray Cumming has done a much better job of understanding the C++ paradigm (ouch, did I just use that word..) than the Troll developers.
After looking at the following you will sure understand that I have a different opinion about gtkmm <-> Qt and KOffice. :)
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 8:41 UTC (Thu) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link]
Sorry, I don't understand that comment - could you expand a little bit? As far as I can see you've just shown me a CVS log for some project I've never heard of...
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 10:14 UTC (Thu) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]
It's the (extremely nifty) KDE CVS interface program, with changes to kdebase scattered throughout as well.
So yes, I'd say it's not surprising he likes Qt and friends. :)
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 11:07 UTC (Thu) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link]
Ah, so he's heavily biased, and I should discount his opinion... ;) Full disclosure: I work on inkscape, a gtkmm app :)
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 16, 2005 3:27 UTC (Fri) by thedevil (guest, #32913) [Link]
njhurst wrote:If you are a C++ programmer you should take a look at gtkmm. It is a lot more C++ than QT. Murray Cumming has done a much better job of understanding the C++ paradigm (ouch, did I just use that word..) than the Troll developers. And the people I'm talking about tend to program in more esoteric languages (they would say 'real languages') such as Haskell, ocaml and Mercury.
Your sense is not clear here. (Who are the "people I'm talking about", Qt people or Gtk?) Can you please explain?
From my post way above you'll see that I quite disagree with you, but
until you clarify I won't repeat that again :-)
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 16, 2005 4:36 UTC (Fri) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link]
I said 'good programmer', cloose seemed to think I meant C++ instead of C or something, I said Haskell etc.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 17, 2005 4:18 UTC (Sat) by thedevil (guest, #32913) [Link]
Ok, now I see, you referred to a post up the thread. Here's where thedisadvantage of a web forum over a newsgroup or mailing list shows ...
I think the preference of Real Language people for gtk is very simple -
there are, by historical accident (or is there another tangible reason?)
bindings for Gtk in those languages, while there aren't any for Qt.
One aspect of Qt is annoying - its dependence on database libraries.
I don't know if that played any role in making Gtk bindings preferred.
KDE = Joy
Posted Dec 15, 2005 23:49 UTC (Thu) by pynm0001 (subscriber, #18379) [Link]
There are indeed a lot of good GTK apps.But please let me know when GnuCash has finally left the stone age of GTK
1.4, then I might be able to stomach using it. ;)
Regards,
- Michael Pyne
GNOME v. KDE, December 2005 edition
Posted Dec 13, 2005 22:04 UTC (Tue) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link]
On the subject of Gaim, have you tried Kopete from KDE 3.5 yet? It has all sorts of nifty features such as webcam support, and the integration with kaddressbook was what finally made me switch.