Ballmer: Microsoft to go after Linux strongholds (ZDNet) [LWN.net]

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 20, 2005 22:07 UTC (Thu) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

What are you saying?

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 20, 2005 22:33 UTC (Thu) by TwoTimeGrime (guest, #11688) [Link]

What I'm saying is that little Gandhi quote doesn't really mean anything. Believing in it and thinking that "We must be close to winning now" means nothing. You can swap the parties that you are talking about in that quote and it's just as valid either way.

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 20, 2005 23:55 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

No, the ones laughing and the ones doing all the fighting are those who lose. The other side is presumably too busy being better to care.

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 21, 2005 2:17 UTC (Fri) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

True. Still, he's right that usually it does go the other way. Otherwise Gandhi's pronouncement wouldn't have seemed so surprising, or quoteable. Tell somebody from any place that was crushed and then ground to powder by Stalin about Gandhi, and see if you get a chuckle. Likewise, any province of China. Or England. Or even India. Late British rule in India was an historical aberration; moreso perhaps only in Malaysia.

U.S. politicians are remarkably cheap, and if MS needs to buy a few dozen (e.g. by proxy, as is their way, through MPAA and RIAA) to (in effect) outlaw Linux, they'll count it money well spent.

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 21, 2005 2:25 UTC (Fri) by TwoTimeGrime (guest, #11688) [Link]

I find it hard to believe that would be true in all cases. I still assert that the quote is meaningless. And it's still annoying. It means nothing.

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 21, 2005 5:42 UTC (Fri) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link]

Well, I think the meaning of the quote lies more in the first three phases: you do not fight something which you ignore, or something laughable. It seems people who are recalling it are saying that Linux is well known and not laughable any more, but a force to reckon with.

The last phrase then you win seems more motivational in nature (as rev has said below) and is probably meaningless (as shown in ncm's examples).

What it means...

Posted Oct 21, 2005 6:43 UTC (Fri) by Tashlan (guest, #17277) [Link]

This quote does mean something. It means that fighting undermines your objectives. You fight because you are afraid and when you fight, you shift your focus away from your ambitions and onto your fears instead.
By focussing on their fears, Microsoft has helped to create the reality that Linux is today. They are manifesting their fears with the energy they expend in their "defense". Their actions have lead credence to the idea that Linux is worth evaluating. People that otherwise wouldn't have known about Linux were clued in and began to see what Microsoft was so concerned was about.

Use your opponents energy against them; your own is much too valuable to squander fighting.

Then *they* win?

Posted Oct 27, 2005 7:53 UTC (Thu) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

No you can't.

For you to swap the roles, it would require that the Linux-community first ignored, then laughed at and then started figthing the MS-emperium, which quite obviously is simply not true.

Now, it *is* true that comercial unix-vendors for far too long ignored and laughed at the ridicolous (by their standards) MS-DOS. When they started figthing it, it was too late: Microsoft won the desktop almost by walkover, pushed by the generic hardware of IBM.

Certainly, the fact that someone which used to ignore or laugh at you now actively figths you is no proof you'll win.

It *is* however a pretty strong indication that you're making progress in a direction they don't like. It's a long time since Gates claimed: "I've never had a customer mention Linux to me." which sounds a lot like the "ignore" phase to me.

Please, TwoTimeGrime, do get a life, will ya?

Posted Oct 21, 2005 5:06 UTC (Fri) by rev (guest, #15082) [Link]

Nobody claims the Ghandi quote has the status of a law of nature or a mathematical theorem. Ans sensible people don't read it that way.

Ya know, the quote gave the Ghandi movement fighting the governing powers emotional strength and belief in its cause.

Likewise.

Posted Oct 21, 2005 22:57 UTC (Fri) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link]

And, ver, his name is *still* Gandhi, not Ghandi.

It's clear Gandhi meant the last line as a puckish joke. People who repeat the quote piously, without irony, are engaging in self-deception and wishful thinking. People in leadership roles who think that way end in failure, rout, and disaster. There are lots of ways to fail, even when everything seems to be on your side. Getting distracted by Microsoft's closet monsters, and letting them decide how well we are doing and what we do next, would be another. To forget why we started down this road (freedom, remember?) is the surest.