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does the desktop matter anymore?

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 27, 2005 9:27 UTC (Tue) by oseemann (subscriber, #6687)
In reply to: does the desktop matter anymore? by b7j0c
Parent article: KDE 4 promises radical changes to the free desktop (NewsForge)

are there people who really only store their photos on their local box?

why would anyone want to entrust all their private memories to a foreign company? and isn't it tedious to manage thousands of pictures through a remote web interface? do they even accept my 20gb without me paying any money?
let alone the privacy issues ...

isn't it much more convenient to have a smart photo management system on your desktop? without all that network latency and bandwidth restrictions? without storage restrictions and easy removable media support as well as backup&restore functionality?

flickr&co are good for presenting selected images to a wider audience, but not for primary picture storage.


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does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 27, 2005 12:10 UTC (Tue) by pjs (guest, #10927) [Link]

For most home PCs, a website maintained by a company is more reliable long-term storage than their local hard drive. Yes, it sounds crazy. In fact, about as crazy as never making backups. But that is the condition of most home computing, that backups are never, ever made. Not weekly, not monthly, not anually, not ever.

Virtually all home computing is done on Microsoft Windows. The most common "application" is entertainment. Often that's playing games, sometimes playing music or movies, other times it's trying nifty new software that amounts the resource-hogging eye candy. New applications (if you can go so far as to call them applications) are installed on a whim with little regard for long term system stability. Even without a buildup of malware, the system becomes less and less responsive as more and more, often poorly written eye-candy software hooks itself into various OS functions. Sometimes, a hardware failure occurs, though I've seen cases where home users mistake software problems for hardware failure (in which case they often believe recovering and saving their data is impossible). Human frustration also plays a significant factor.

Eventually, either a computer savvy friend does a clean install, or more often, a new computer is purchased to replace the old one which no longer functions well. How does typical home computer data get migrated to the new system? Most often, it simply doesn't.

By the time frustration with the computer's poor or flakey performance builds to the point of buying a replacement system, such a feeling of disgust and resignation builds that no attempt is made to save data.

Most home users, and in fact most business computer users don't have much awareness of where in the directory heirarchy they are storing their files. In recent times the situation has improved somewhat, with photo program defaulting to save photos in a "My Photos" directory, music applications defaulting to save files in "My Music", and so on. But if the files are located somewhere else, usually because some software had a default working directory configured elsewhere, only savvy users will have some idea where their data is actually stored. Many "user friendly" programs are designed for home users who can't understand the filesystem heirarchy and attempt to shield users from such difficult concepts, resulting in no opportunity to learn where the files are really stored in the ordinary course of using the program.

Even when they do know where their files are located, the task of transfering their data to a new PC, or backing up their data before a reinstall and restoring it afterward is quite daunting. Perhaps some home users can successfully network two computers and copy files (in the case where a complete 2nd system including a second monitor is purchased). But the reality is that burning files to cdrom is about the only managable way (for users savvy enough to even know where their files are) to transfer them between PCs. Of course, on top of knowing where files are located, copying to cdroms requires a PC still functioning well enough to actually burn a cd, and patience and thoughness to actually manages the process of dividing up many files between mulitple discs, patiently burning each one, and double checking to make sure everything important has been saved properly. It's an error prone process to manually back up to small size removable media, when any attempt is made at all.

For people who don't invest the time and money required for regular backups, who aren't savvy to the actual location and format of their data files, whose primary PC application is entertainment, who value new eye-candy over long-term system stability, and who may not always excersize caution and dilligence against infection of malware, long-term storage of data on external website makes a lot of sense.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 27, 2005 12:27 UTC (Tue) by mrshiny (subscriber, #4266) [Link]

Your view of computer users is pretty harsh, but, even if all you say is true, having worked at a computer store in the past I can say that most people who care about data on their old computer find a way to get the data off (assuming the hard disk is ok). If they can't get it off they call their local whizz-kid. If he can't get the data they send the data to a repair shop. My store had a repair shop where we often transferred a user's data to a new computer. In fact this was sometimes negotiated right into the sale of the computer. Many people don't know how their hard disk works but they can usually tell where there photos are stored, if they have taken any number of photos worth transferring to a new computer.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 7:15 UTC (Wed) by Wol (guest, #4433) [Link]

The trouble with asking the "local whizz-kid" is even that screws up often enough, thanks to Windows :-(

I backed up my brother-in-law's pc before wiping his hard disk. At least, I thought I had. It backed up everything fine without errors, except (1) it ignored hidden folders, and (2) because I backed it up from the top of C:, it ignored "Documents and Settings", because it was a hidden folder!

I didn't find that out until too late :-(

Cheers,
Wol

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 11:45 UTC (Wed) by carcassonne (guest, #31569) [Link]

"except (1) it ignored hidden folders, and (2) because I backed it up from the top of C:, it ignored "Documents and Settings", because it was a hidden folder!"

Did you do a complete system restore from the backup, including all system files needed to run the OS ? Why no only re-install the OS for its distribution media and then only restore the user data ?

C: has to be the stupidest invention in computer history. No way to simply backup all of a user's data files in one sweep.

On Linux, the user will not save his/her data in /usr/sbin/. It'll be in his/her home directory and that's it. Want to save some system settigns, then backup /etc and that's it. Re-install system from distribution media and re-install the user's data files and possibly tweak some config files, but that's could really be not necessary.

I'd like to see Microsoft confined in 10 years from now publishing exclusively OSes and softwares for game boxes while the home PC would be the serious matter. People would have to power up their game boxes to run MS Office, which is not that bad after all, metaphorically speaking ;-)

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 27, 2005 15:07 UTC (Tue) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

" But the reality is that burning files to cdrom is about the only managable way (for users savvy enough to even know where their files are) to transfer them between PCs. "

The only ?... savvy?... you mean here careless, which everybody is, even top scientists, or savvy is the not so clueless & dumb common joe/jane ?

All in all, it seams by your exposition that there is a dire need for Big, Fat, Bloated management features on all those desktops for helping users not be so careless and carry all those needed management tasks automatically and transparently(with voice Output/input also,perhaps) out of the hands of the lazy users.

Neither windows or KDE or Gnome is even close to that yet!

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 27, 2005 16:13 UTC (Tue) by b7j0c (subscriber, #27559) [Link]

>> why would anyone want to entrust all their private memories to a foreign company?

seen many comments like this, of course no matter what point is made in a discussion, someone will rebut, but i am amazed that people are trying to pass off as insightful what in essence is a statement of fully trusting their own hard-drive to never fail as their one source of data. and now of course there will be a dozen comments about elaborate backup schemes like cds and dvds, but lets be honest, you don't do that either.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 7:07 UTC (Wed) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

> but i am amazed that people are trying to pass off as insightful what in essence is a statement of fully trusting their own hard-drive to never fail as their one source of data

Frankly I'd rather lose certain pictures of my girlfriend to to a faulty hard drive than giving them to _any_one else and I'm sure she feels all the same.

Regardless, I have my important data on the desktop PC and my notebook, so one crashed harddrive wouldn't be that much a problem.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Oct 4, 2005 10:01 UTC (Tue) by ekj (subscriber, #1524) [Link]

cds and dvds are indeed elaborate. Especially for those of us with large data-collections. Every time I press the shutter-release on my camera I generate 3-10MB of data (depending on if shoot raw or jpeg) adds up quickly.

Making atleast minimal backups are however *not* elaborate. Unless you think that clicking a *single* mouseclick once a week or whenever you feel like it is a lot of work.

It doesn't take more than that with a separate harddisk and rsync (or any of the other programs for such stuff). Yes it costs like a hundred or even 150$ extra when you buy the machine to hqave two separate disks in there. If your data ain't worth that much to you, don't bother.

I'm fully aware that two disks can die at once, or that the house can burn and so on. It's not fault-prrof, but a lot better than trusting a single consumer-grade harddisk to never fail. They all fail earlier or later.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 2:18 UTC (Wed) by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385) [Link]

why would anyone want to entrust all their private memories to a foreign company?
  • Because consumer-oriented data storage can have one unrecoverable failure every 3 weeks yet still operate within its reliability specs, and the warranties cover the media and/or drives, not the data. Backups are nice, automated backups are nicer, but they're nicest of all if you can just pay someone else to do them.
  • Because some people have the photos so they can share them with other people. That's possible to do on a server system in your own basement, but it's often more convenient to farm that sort of task out a hosting service, especially if you live in a small apartment, own only one noisy computer and don't want to keep it online and malware-free 24/7. As a bonus, if your photography is attractive to a Slashdot-sized crowd, it's your hosting service that goes down in flames, not your personal Internet feed. I've learned that particular lesson the hard way...
  • Because so many systems are misconfigured, compromised, or just plain broken, such that they slowly corrupt data over time. A bit gets flipped here, a word gets doubled or zeroed there...unless you're verifying your data every day, it's possible to have this going on for years without causing anything to visibly fail. Since most people don't run 'md5sum -c' over their entire filesystem every day, most people don't notice the damage until it's too late. I look for it proactively, and find it disturbingly often.
  • Because beginner-oriented articles in digital photography magazines advocate storing digital images on flash cards, CD-R's and DVD's, even on paper...but never ever on the system hard drive, except as a backup of all the other media, or for editing or transmission.
Enterprise data storage, which by definition includes facilities and technical staff, is too expensive for many users to purchase at home; however, a photo-album-sized chunk of an enterprise data server is affordable to many consumers, and a few megabits is sufficient bandwidth as you're only shooting pictures on special occasions.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 14:45 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

Entrust data !

Google offered 2Gb for mail, they could easly offer as much for descriptionary user/client backup, now that single disk devices are at 1Terabyte,... no?

Is everybody so dumb they need photo applications do backups for them, or they can trust a simple dialogue a configure a automated backup for photos or other relevante folders, and many things more, from their desktops ?

In your line of operations, applications are king, and if consider many type of data, you soon get **LOCKED-IN** to particular applications and to perticular service providers, incompatible between eachother, preventing you from changing application... CONGRATULATION YOU ARE NOW A SLAVE IN M$ DREAM.

Me i rather TRUST MY DESKTOP, buy a external disk for autometed/manual backups, because the probability of 2 disks, the main and backup, failing at exactly the same time is very close to 0(zero)... and i only have to pay for the disk, say 200GB, that most certainly will be cheaper them to rent online space, from any angle you look at it.

So the Desktop matter more now then ever before, which wont invalidate me from renting online disk space or other valuable Web-Services that dont enslave me.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 29, 2005 3:45 UTC (Thu) by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385) [Link]

People do actually advertise outsourced backup services over the Internet. With "military grade" 56-bit DES encryption, even. If I could remember who they were, I'd check to see if they were still around.

The cost proposition for general backups is fairly bad, unless they are able to do something intelligent, like merge identical files from different customers together in their backup database. The bandwidth requirement can be quite high, you typically use a lot of bandwidth sending data that you don't necessarily retrieve, and in the (typical) disaster case, nothing short of 10GBE will be fast enough for an impatient and/or desparate user. This is all costs for the service provider that are incurred by users who hope they'll never really need the service. It's a hard sell to anyone who isn't already desparate to have an off-site copy of their data somewhere (and do you really want such people as your customers? What _is_ this data, anyway? etc).

That said, there are some advantages. If you back up your own machine, you'll need a gigabyte or two for all the system software and applications; however, if someone backs up ten computers like yours, then the marginal disk space used for the 10th customer is just their own personal files. If someone backs up her MP3 collection they downloaded from the internet, it takes up virtually no space as long as the same company also backs up the guy who she downloaded it from. I use this trick myself when backing up 30 machines at the office, and it saves dozens of gigabytes on tape. Over 10,000 customers, the efficiencies could be quite substantial...or the indexing overhead could be crippling. If you are running the service, and you know that the population of users is all e.g. Fedora 4 systems with OpenOffice, then you can give customers a discount on the contents of /usr (because it will be gigabytes of identical data, it will be cheap for you to store, and your customer has the convenience of not having to reinstall it all on restore).

I agree that application-specific web services (particularly those that are heavily optimized to be used by human browsers) are damned annoying things to use in combination with other application-specific web services. Sometimes it is possible to cobble together some Perl scripts that act as a gateway from one web application to another. Sometimes it is possible to cobble together some Perl scripts that combine a few desktop GUI components together, too, and increasingly a bunch of GUI components is starting to look and feel like a bunch of web servers (or is it the other way around?). Sometimes it is just easier to find someone who has put all this stuff together for you in some useful way.

does the desktop matter anymore?

Posted Sep 28, 2005 15:57 UTC (Wed) by mmarq (guest, #2332) [Link]

" Because so many systems are misconfigured, compromised, or just plain broken, such that they slowly corrupt data over time. A bit gets flipped here, a word gets doubled or zeroed there...unless you're verifying your data every day, it's possible to have this going on for years without causing anything to visibly fail. Since most people don't run 'md5sum -c' over their entire filesystem every day, most people don't notice the damage until it's too late. I look for it proactively, and find it disturbingly often. "

The big fault here, for not saying the only is of the concept of FILE SYSTEM.

I'm the one that belives that an enourmity of resources and money have been spent in the last 25 years building insecure systems... many other reasons came to mind besides technical insufficience.

Enter a pure capability *real safe e secure* system:
http://www.eros-os.org/essays/reliability/paper.html and here
http://www.eros-os.org/essays/wherefrom.html
http://www.eros-os.org/essays/wherefrom.html

And what is a persistente sinle level store that cuts down *for good* with all those nasty inconsistente file systems, without being incompatible with them.
http://www.eros-os.org/essays/Persistence.html
http://www.eros-os.org/papers/storedesign2002.pdf

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