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Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com)
News.com reports
that Sun Microsystems is talking with Red Hat about RHEL support on Sun's
new Galaxy servers. "Sun is being more accommodating toward Linux
again--specifically, to Red Hat, whose Enterprise Linux product dominates
the Linux market. Sun extended its Red Hat support contract to the new
Galaxy servers and invited Red Hat to share some of its spotlight, along
with partners Oracle, MySQL and Advanced Micro Devices. "Stay tuned on the
Red Hat-Sun relationship," Sun President Jonathan Schwartz said at the
Galaxy launch event in New York. "We think there's ample opportunity to
work together out there.""
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Will Sun ever make up their mind? Posted Sep 14, 2005 15:24 UTC (Wed) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] I doubt it, they have been changing sides every 3 months for the last 5 years, and I don't think anyone can take them seriously anymore.
One they they say the love Linux, the next they are spreading more FUD about it than Microsoft; one day they are "the greatest Open Source supporters", the next they screw your over[*]
As someone that had to maintain Java applications running on FreeBSD boxes, I swore never again to have anything to do with Sun or any of the junk they produce.
(And I also have plenty of war stories about how crappy their hardware is, but I won't bother you with those)
[*] Just an example from two days ago: https://jdk.dev.java.net/jse_ip_issues.html
Will Sun ever make up their mind? Posted Sep 14, 2005 16:56 UTC (Wed) by avr (guest, #27673) [Link] Thanks for that link. I've never occupied myself with java much. I knew there were some problems (since it's not in debian main), but this document sums the problem up neatly, and from a freedom perspective it's far more concerning than I imagined.
I think the document is a very good example why software should not have masters that can grant or deny requests regarding third party creativity.
It's also a very good example of why completely different laws should not be lumped together under "IP".
Demuxing "IP" here yields: "Even if you manage to not use the registered names (to get around trademarks) and use the [to be certifiably compatible] source code of the apache harmony project under the license they distribute under (to get around copyright) we will still have a stronghold over you with our software idea patents.
This could mean if you apply a patch you're not allowed to redistribute the result.
I can see the value of protecting brand quality as for example Redhat did through the use of trademarks.
It feels like sun is trying to chain an implementation of java that will be distributed under a free software license.
Will Sun ever make up their mind? Posted Sep 14, 2005 18:47 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Indeed. It is a poisonous document from start to end. Any hopes we might have about the JDK being distributed under the CDDL license (and finally having a free implementation from Sun) necessarily end here. Even more, they want to chain other people's code, for using a publicly available specification!Demuxing "IP" here yields: "Even if you manage to not use the registered names (to get around trademarks) and use the [to be certifiably compatible] source code of the apache harmony project under the license they distribute under (to get around copyright) we will still have a stronghold over you with our software idea patents.Well, I'm not sure that it is only about software patents; I think they want to use the J2SE specification (whatever it is; I think most of this qualifies) as Adobe with the PDF spec, forbidding its use for implementations they don't like. How or by what law it is enforceable, we are not told. People, if you haven't yet fallen into the Java trap, stay out of this mess.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 21:00 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Folks, the java license isn't perfect, but it's not all that bad, and I really don't hink sun is out to screw you over.
Look, at least java is freely available for a number of platforms, and sun doesn't try to tell you which of the supported OSes to run it on.
You can fight to the death against java, but what will fill the vacuum if you succeed? whoops, microsoft and .net - and you thought java was bad? wait til the only platform you're allowed to use is microsoft windoze!
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 21:39 UTC (Wed) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] > Look, at least java is freely available for a number of platforms,"freely" as in beer, and an available as in "it kind of works, but we test it mostly on windows, so everywhere else you are on your own" > and sun doesn't try to tell you which of the supported OSes to run it on. And those supported OSes are: Windows(x86), Solaris(SPARC and x86), Linux(x86)(kind of, thanks to the pain, blood, sweat and tears of the blackdown guys), and Apple(PPC)(when Apple manages to release it, which is often way behind Sun). That is four OSes, and three hardware architectures in total, there are dozens of OSes and architectures out there, you do the numbers... And don't forget why java is called "write once, test everywhere", so if you want your code to run on those systems, you have to test your code one each of them(and with some luck even with different versions of the JVM). > You can fight to the death against java, but what will fill the vacuum if you succeed? Better things. (And yes, both of them are _really_ Open Source and really cross platform and ported to dozens of systems.) Sun is no better than Microsoft, and the reason they are not an evil monopoly is because they are too incompetent to manage to get one.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 22:26 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Inferno? OK, let's check out the website... hmm, why won't the demos work???Aha! The Inferno plug-in runs a full Inferno system inside Internet Explorer versions 4 and higher. That is my first experience of inferno, and I've already lost all interest, based on the microsoft and msie centric mindset of the inferno developers. If I wanted to be locked into microsoft winbloze, I'd stick with visual basic.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 22:56 UTC (Wed) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] What part of "Inferno Fourth Edition downloads (for Plan 9, Windows NT/2000/XP, FreeBSD, Irix, Linux, MacOSX, Solaris)." you didn't understand? (And that list forgets to mention that Inferno runs directly on the hardware of over a dozen platforms, including ones without MMU or FP unit.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 23:13 UTC (Wed) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] That checklist of supported OSes certainly sounds good doesn't it?
Then you go to their site and try to run the demos, and are immediately hit with the old "Sorry, microsoft customers only!" routine.
If they can't manage to make their site accessible to anyone except a microsoft customer running msie, that tells me that linux doesn't matter to them.
OTOH I can go to java.sun.com and run all the demos, which work perfectly, and I can download the latest jvm, docs and sample code, and all of it works perfectly on linux.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 14, 2005 23:43 UTC (Wed) by leimy (guest, #32464) [Link] You seem to think Inferno is only a browser plugin. I suggest you actually read the the website andtry clicking the Download link to learn how to install it.
You can even get the full source code, in "Open Source Approved" Licenses if you want.
I currently run Inferno on Windows, Solaris and Mac OS X without any problems and I'm looking into
Then again, you'd probably be on your own pretty much, in the Inferno community as they tend to
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 15, 2005 1:23 UTC (Thu) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] As leimy pointed out, you seem to be seriously confused, Inferno is an operating system, not a plug-in; it just happen to be able to run hosted as an application under many OSes... or even as a plug-in(no one has written a mozilla plug-in version yet, but one is on the works, but the plug-in isn't the typical way you would use Inferno anyway).
And the vitanuova website works fine on any browser, it's only the demo of the plug-in that wont work, but really, who cares when you can download the .iso that runs on half a dozen OSes or download the code that can run on over a dozen systems(including directly on your hardware)?
That surely is much more portability than Java can ever dream of.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 15, 2005 3:45 UTC (Thu) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] No, I don't think I'm confused at all - I think I have a pretty good idea of what inferno is, but you completely missed my point. Let me try and simplify this a bit:
Inferno may be a useful thing. It may or may not be worth my time to look into it, but if I am turned away by a windows-only demo site, I'm a lot less likely to invest any appreciable time checking it out, because of the irritating first impression. First impressions count for a lot - it may be silly, but it's a psychological fact. But more seriously, it indicates that, for these folks, anything other than microsoft windoze is simply an afterthought, if even that.
It was claimed that java is tested mainly on windoze, with everyone else being "pretty much on their own", but that's not the case at all. I'd say that java on unix is undoubtedly much more thoroughly tested than inferno, after all there are an awful lot of mission-critical enterprise apps built on java, and running on solaris or linux. The industry support for j2ee is impressive in it's depth and breadth (whereas inferno is somewhat of a curiosity that few IT people are familiar with) but best of all, linux is a first class citizen in the j2ee world, with timely, tested releases, and full support available.
As to to the portability of java, there are java variants that run on all sorts of odd hardware, from lego mindstorms to mobile phones and PDAs and even secret decoder rings. Surely you're not claiming that java isn't portable, are you?
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 15, 2005 17:37 UTC (Thu) by cventers (subscriber, #31465) [Link] Actually, I'm quite looking forward to Perl6 and Parrot filling thevacuum. True, it's a virtual machine, which has its pros and cons... but the performance of Parrot should certainly be superior... the language features of Perl6 are absolutely stunning to behold, and Parrot will run Python / Ruby / Java / Perl6 under the same umbrella, allowing the languages to reuse eachother's code. The rapid evolution of Pugs (the Perl6 User's Golfing System) gives me great hope for a better computing future. P6 was designed from the ground up as a perl rewrite with community feedback. It's been a long time in the making, but I think the results will be well worth the hassles.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 15, 2005 19:49 UTC (Thu) by GreyWizard (guest, #1026) [Link] You can fight to the death against java, but what will fill the vacuum if you succeed? Good point! How can anyone write code that runs unchanged on GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, OS X, AIX and Solaris using x86, x86_64, PPC, ARM and other hardware without Java? Well, come to think of it one might use Python, Perl or Tcl. Or Ruby. Or Scheme. Or Common Lisp. But none of those are implemented by free software... except... well, all of them. Wait, could you explain why strong compatability requires crippling intellectual property constraints again?
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 15, 2005 23:37 UTC (Thu) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Sure, just use ruby. or perl. or python. or lisp... oh wait... damn.
We still have a huge problem: how do we replace the j2ee infrastructure, the whole spectrum of j2ee vendors, broad base of enterprise applications, and industry support?
Oh, right! We just tell them to rewrite everything in the cool language of the week, which of course everyone agrees on... oh, wait... damn.
I don't understand where you're trying to go with the question about crippling IP constraints. I do know, however, that a lot of very cool code, both free and proprietary, has been written in java.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 16, 2005 5:36 UTC (Fri) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] > "how do we replace the j2ee infrastructure, the whole spectrum of j2ee vendors, broad base of enterprise applications, and industry support?"
You should apply for a job as PHB
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 16, 2005 15:56 UTC (Fri) by GreyWizard (guest, #1026) [Link] We still have a huge problem: how do we replace the j2ee infrastructure, the whole spectrum of j2ee vendors, broad base of enterprise applications, and industry support? "We"? I certainly don't have a problem. I don't use j2ee. Less fortunate people (or organizations) are welcome to stay with what they've got, rewrite everything in some other language or just spend all day throwing chairs at one another. Whatever. Exactly when did I say that all existing code written in Java must be purged from the world? Here's a hint: I didn't. You're arguing against a straw man. I don't understand where you're trying to go with the question about crippling IP constraints. And you won't until you need to use the language environment in an unconventional way to support some innovative idea. When you're ready for that Sun will be right there with reams of paperwork for requesting a license. When you submit this they will ignore it for months or years. Eventually they'll ask probing questions about your business model and plans to decide whether permitting you to continue is compatible with their vision this month, which will be completely incompatible with their vision last month. Assuming this roulette wheel comes up with your number they'll tell you exactly how much hard cash you'll need to turn over. Of course, by that time someone else will have thought of something that makes your idea obsolete and implemented it in a freely available language environment. Only then will you be enlightened.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 16, 2005 20:56 UTC (Fri) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] And you won't until you need to use the language environment in an unconventional way to support some innovative idea. When you're ready for that Sun will be right there with reams of paperwork for requesting a license. When you submit this they will ignore it for months or years. Eventually they'll ask probing questions about your business model and plans to decide whether permitting you to continue is compatible with their vision this month, which will be completely incompatible with their vision last month. Assuming this roulette wheel comes up with your number they'll tell you exactly how much hard cash you'll need to turn over. Of course, by that time someone else will have thought of something that makes your idea obsolete and implemented it in a freely available language environment. Only then will you be enlightened.You have to admit, this is not the common case. Most java developers never even come close to seeing this sort of bureaucratic bungle. But even those that do, need not throw away their java skill set - the gnu java compiler is fairly promising for instance...
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 19, 2005 15:51 UTC (Mon) by GreyWizard (guest, #1026) [Link] this is not the common case. Should one of your projects take a turn that requires flexibility from the language environment the fact that your needs aren't "the common case" will be cold comfort indeed. Don't imagine this is all that uncommon either. Most organizations quietly work this because they know a more direct approach would be doomed. That can get expensive. That's the Java trap. Languages completely implemented by free software don't create such problems. the gnu java compiler is fairly promising for instance... GCJ and Classpath exist because of the problems the Sun Java license causes -- which proves my point, not yours. Only when free software alternatives completely implement all of the specifications that make up Java can it be said that Java has the same portability and flexibility as languages like Perl, Python, Tcl, Ruby, Scheme and Common Lisp. That day has not yet arrived. Remember that you began this by claiming Java could only be replaced by the .NET environment. That's just wrong. Sure, people who have been tricked into the Java trap by Sun hype can escape by porting their code to the subset of the libraries supported by GNU Classpath. Meanwhile those in a position to choose should stay clear of a confused language that was designed by a committee. Don't be fooled into sticking with Java just because you've invested time in learning it. That's the sunk cost fallacy. Programming skills are easily transferable to languages that support more concise and maintainable code.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 19, 2005 17:11 UTC (Mon) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Remember that you began this by claiming Java could only be replaced by the .NET environment.I didn't say that java could only be replaced by .net. Technically speaking, java could be replaced by all sorts of things. But looking at the world realistically, my view is that the most likely outcome of the fight against java would be to hand the market to microsoft and .net on a silver platter - and that would be far worse than any java trap you could imagine. I agree that programming skills can be transferred, as knowledge of algorithms, data structures and design patterns are transferrable to any modern language, so I don't dispute your point there. I do think some here have exaggerated java's supposed problems with cross-platform compatbility. I've written GUI apps that use sound and i/o, jarred them up on my linux box, scp'd them to my wife's plain old mac, and voila, they run as is, with the same look, feel and sound. If there are incompatibilties between jvms on different platforms, they seem to be rather obscure, and quite difficult to detect. If I find a better cross platform environment than java, one in which linux is truly a first class citizen, and which has at least a likelihood of broad vendor support, I'll be very interested to check it out, but I'm not eager to dump java before there's a suitable replacement. My concern is that microsoft, with their frantic, incessant marketing hype and large budget, will be eagerly waiting for any high profile defectors from java with hype, spin, bribes and all sorts of inducements.
Sun extends olive branch to Red Hat (News.com) Posted Sep 19, 2005 19:31 UTC (Mon) by GreyWizard (guest, #1026) [Link] But looking at the world realistically, my view is that the most likely outcome of the fight against java would be to hand the market to microsoft and .net on a silver platter Nonsense. Arguing against the license under which Java is distributed on the basis of flexibility and portability is not going to drive anyone to an even more restrictive platform. Anyway, I don't see any argument you've made that wouldn't apply equally well or even better to the .NET platform. Microsoft doesn't charge money for their tools either, there is a free software alternative in the form of Mono and they not necessarily more likely to deploy patents against free software competitors than the schizophrenic knuckleheads in charge at Sun Microsystems. I've written GUI apps that use sound and i/o, jarred them up on my linux box, scp'd them to my wife's plain old mac, and voila, they run as is, with the same look, feel and sound. Is that supposed to be impressive? I've executed Win32 applications my father wrote on a GNU/Linux system using WINE. They run as is, with the same look, feel and sound. Does that mean Win32 is a good platform for portable applications? The same feat can be accomplished using SDL with Python/GTK+, Tcl/Tk and many more, but in these cases there are even more combinations of hardware and operating systems where the trick works. Portability is a subtle thing. Maybe Sun's JVM is portable enough for the set of platforms you care about, but then again maybe you've just been conditioned to care only about the platforms where it runs well. I've certainly had machines with a combination of hardware and software that were only supported by free software implemented programming tools. One day you may find you need to use one of these yourself and if so I hope you haven't used too many features GNU Classpath doesn't have. If I find a better cross platform environment than java, [...] and which has at least a likelihood of broad vendor support, Broad vendor support? You seem to have accepted the idea that you can't use a tool to solve a problem until enormous corporation gives you permission. Exactly what do you need vended to you? A fancy text editor? Database access drivers? XML parsing? All of these things and more are readily available at no cost and no significant license restrictions for every language implemented in free software. I'm sorry you're unwilling to move beyond Java. You're missing out.
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