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Open opposition (China Daily)
China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model.
Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."
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Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Aug 31, 2005 16:17 UTC (Wed) by thyrsus (subscriber, #21004) [Link] I'm unfamiliar with press standards and expectations in China. In the west, the article's reporting of the putative TCO numbers as fact (with three significant digits, no less) would provoke derisive letters to the editor. How will such an article be received in China? With what kind of credibility? With what sophistication will its readers note the source of the message?
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Aug 31, 2005 19:09 UTC (Wed) by JoeBuck (subscriber, #2330) [Link] Chinese readers, I think, are used to the idea that what they see in print has an agenda, and that one must read between the lines to figure out what might really be going on, to a greater extent than Americans.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Aug 31, 2005 21:12 UTC (Wed) by ncm (subscriber, #165) [Link] Stories you'd expect to see in Weekly World News are mainstream newspaper fare. Yetis, two-headed space aliens, the works. Does Ed Anger (publisher of WWN) have an agenda? Actually, yes. His attitude is, you can't believe what you read, so just do as you're told. Not so different from China's, really.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Aug 31, 2005 18:28 UTC (Wed) by nurhussein (guest, #16226) [Link] Wait, wait.
What did the developers die from? Starvation?
How chilling.
:)
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Aug 31, 2005 21:39 UTC (Wed) by xtifr (subscriber, #143) [Link] No, no, they've been murdered by Bill-Gates-funded hitmen! Didn't you see the movie Antitrust? :)
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 14:18 UTC (Thu) by slorba (guest, #17024) [Link] Computer weekly quatation from 2002: Yep.. This is interesting and in the light of later comments to this article, there seems to be a quick sifting going on in China to be the world's last goverment to understand your companies needs. This kind of courting with Big companies seems to be self flatering in the minds of chinese bureaucrats. Let's hope IBM snatches the bride in the end.
And guess what ??? Microsoft is behind this... Posted Aug 31, 2005 21:59 UTC (Wed) by pyxis (guest, #15886) [Link] From the article...
"The government's "excessive preference" for Linux is not beneficial to the country's software industry, says the government-backed China Software Industry Association (CSIA)."
And, all of you know that Microsoft joined China Software Industry Association in 2002 http://english.people.com.cn/200206/17/eng20020617_97986.....
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Aug 31, 2005 23:32 UTC (Wed) by atai (subscriber, #10977) [Link] This "association" is actually government controlled so this article is a baloon that the pro-Linux policy may be changing. Microsoft's public relationship efforts over there are paying off. As we know it is a dictatorship, and so if Microsoft wins the high officials over as friends policy can change 180 degrees overnight.
It is not clear how will this impact the global movement of governments toward Linux but it may cause some other governments to reconsider their Linux policies. It can be said, however, that a pro-Microsoft policy in mainland China can mean the officials in charge sells mainland China out to Microsoft...
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Sep 1, 2005 0:05 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] Or - "Microsoft Joins Cisco as a Chinese Company!" Recently Microsoft USA ceased to be an American company, having reincorporated in the PRC. In the future the center of research, marketing and manufacturing will be almost exclusively be based within the rising economies of Asia. Very little will remain in the crumbling economies of the so called democratic republics in the West.
Well, at least, Toynbee would have been happy were he still alive.
[Oh, yes and Linux will be for the losers in other less advanced states. Whereas leading economies will use advanced Windows distributions in addition to MSLinux for high efficiency servers.]
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Sep 1, 2005 1:22 UTC (Thu) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link] "Recently Microsoft USA ceased to be an American company, having reincorporated in the PRC"
Is this a prediction, or is MSFT really a PRC company now? Do you have any evidience of this? I'm astonished.
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Sep 1, 2005 3:07 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] RE: "Is this a prediction, or is MSFT really a PRC company now? Do you have any evidience of this? I'm astonished."
Well I thought the item using MSLinux for servers was a dead give away. However, considering we have a very large (formerly) American corporation still residing on these shores incorporated, in name only, at a Caribbean Mailbox, why couldn't my prediction be taken as a restrained view of the near future?
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Sep 1, 2005 5:51 UTC (Thu) by jtc (subscriber, #6246) [Link] "'Recently Microsoft USA ceased to be an American company, having reincorporated in the PRC'
Is this a prediction, or is MSFT really a PRC company now? Do you have any evidience of this? I'm astonished."
It reeks of satire.
:-)
This may be an indication of policy change Posted Sep 1, 2005 16:51 UTC (Thu) by TxtEdMacs (subscriber, #5983) [Link] RE: "It reeks of satire."
Preceptive! However, the possibility that something akin to what I outlined is not really that big a stretch.
On reflection I have a much bleaker view, assuming the propaganda being issued has a basis. First: currently the Communist Party long ago lost the perception that it owned the right to govern China. It is more a case of tolerating the devil you know over the uncertainties unleashed when the lowest levels of Chinese society finally wipe out the former rulers. The growing middle class is pampered to keep them from starting the overthrow of the known to be corrupt regime. Moreover, in the provinces where the majority of the population still resides the central government may have only tenuous control. There the pattern has been force, payoffs and dividing the opposition's incipient leadership by the means listed.
If you accept that as a given, what does the Chinese leadership have to gain by following the path MS offers? In China the push to Linux and open programming was based upon their perceived self interest. If they relied upon Windows, they could be easily penetrated by U.S. spy agencies. However, as in all engineering questions this cuts in more than one direction. Free software to the populous could lead to circumvention of the controls the party attempts to employ to keep the population uninformed and under control. Should MS offer complete access to the entire code base of each Windows distribution distributed in China they could be assured the NSA would not have easy access while they could refine methods to open the general population to increased surveillance. To China's current elite that is a win-win proposition. To MS that is a bit of a loss to a future big win, by discouraging a massive move to Linux. Some could even call this a treasonous move, where even long term MS could not be assured of increased profitability even as they compromise U.S security interests. However, MS could compensate by higher charges where the inertia, in several western countries, and the fear of change would keep the Windows market fairly large. If this were coupled with legislation to either make Linux illegal or just discouraging its use MS would profit immensely. Well regarding western security interests that's not part of MS's game.
The result would be: wherever it resides MS would be in the pocket of the Chinese and many western (formally liberal) democracies would be on the road to third world status with the U.S.A. leading the way. Look at Hong Kong - the elite back the dictatorship, it's the general population that is resisting. Freedom is not cheap or won easily.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 6:42 UTC (Thu) by iottmco (guest, #32207) [Link] Having lived and worked in China for a while now as an expat. Some irritating aspects in no particular order:
- Im always suprised by how many well educated people are completely fooled by chinese goverment propaganda (hence M$ too).
- Working in a research environment, Im also very much suprised by how local Chinese are completely taken by M$ windows.
- Of course, all the software is pirated.
- If they catch a virus (which is often), they just reinstall... no complaints... standard policy in the "large multinational French/Chinese" company I work for.
- There seems to be a complete lack of good education about operating systems at the university level and tools that exist. Im often amazed by some of my researchers that use M$-word to write complex equations in their documents. (latex anyone?)
- If they need a new peice of software to do something, its normally done using M$ products, despite me showing them free alternatives. A good example is M$ portal solutions verse something like plone.org.
- The level of network expertise available to IT managers is sadly lacking. Most only have understanding of Windows networking.
Anyway one can only hope things improve. Im trying my best to RE-educate!
Cheers
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 8:18 UTC (Thu) by sunzyj (guest, #32209) [Link] You are a betrayer.You can guarantee that you have never used the pirated software? Shutting your mouth, the whited sepulcher!
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 10:37 UTC (Thu) by janpla (guest, #11093) [Link] '- Im always suprised by how many well educated people are completely fooled by chinese goverment propaganda (hence M$ too). '
Could it be that you are being just a wee bit prejudiced? Perhaps people in China simply trust their government? Actually, let's turn it around - I find it totally out of this world that even well educated Americans can believe the total hogwash coming out of the Bush government; 'No, no, there is no reason to think WE are causing global warming' ...
Anyway - assuming you are actually living in China and not just lying - why do you stay if it irritates you so much? You seem to have a very low opinion about 'them' - according to you 'they' are all incompetent, thieves and unwilling to see THE TRUTH and change their ways. I wonder why?
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 14:25 UTC (Thu) by thompsot (guest, #12368) [Link] I have worked on projects within Chinese companies, and what I experienced was exactly as "iottmco" described.
As far as people in China "simply trusting their government", from what I have heard from very respectable people who live there that is not the case, and will seem like a ridiculous notion once one has done even basic research into the Chinese government's audacious human rights and propaganda record...
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 13:47 UTC (Thu) by slorba (guest, #17024) [Link] If these two are facts..
- There seems to be a complete lack of good education about operating systems at the university level and tools that exist. Im often amazed by some of my researchers that use M$-word to write complex equations in their documents. (latex anyone?)
- If they need a new peice of software to do something, its normally done using M$ products, despite me showing them free alternatives. A good example is M$ portal solutions verse something like plone.org.
.. then this article is crafty. It's effectively saying, that the covermennt is goining to snuff MS installations (The sole fabric of your ICT skills).
Damn.. They are good at getting people hooked.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 8:03 UTC (Thu) by sunzyj (guest, #32209) [Link] Haha, I don't think so ,and I don't impact by it.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 1, 2005 15:29 UTC (Thu) by spacehunt (subscriber, #1037) [Link] Unless I'm mistaken, Sun Yufang was with Red Flag but has deceased last year. How can they quote a dead person?
China Daily is good Posted Sep 1, 2005 19:15 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] I would say that people are unjustly resisting the conclusions of the article. I mean, Sun Yufang was apparently a scholar dedicated to the study of the Linux operating system for many years; even more, he was a chairman at Linux distribution Red Flag. Why can't you then believe his assertion thatMost of these developers "either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years," Sun says.The explanation must be that he was doing his scholarly research, and then he found (with predictable surprise) that most developers were already dead or doing something else. Not a reliable workforce, I can tell you. When the article says something like: There has been a misunderstanding that open-source software is not subject to copyrights. The term "copyleft" has been coined to refer to "free" software products. Linux developers are increasingly locked in lawsuits over copyright infringements, however.it is to let its readership know in good faith what is going on in Western countries. It goes on to tell a peculiar but no doubt true version of the SCO story, followed by some patent scare; a bit funny, at first, in a country where control of such matters is so centralized that they can change it overnight; but you will understand it once you get to the thinly veiled threats of implementing a software patent regime: Duan Yuping, an official with the National Copyright Administration, says the government has already noticed the potential patent risks with Linux. The CSIA's report will also offer an important reference for the government in instituting related policies.No doubt for the well-being of the Chinese people. And then in the comments I read how you are surprised that Chinese people trust their government. That is probably because you don't trust your own treacherous corrupted capitalist governments; the Chinese know better, and they know their Communist government would never betray them or put them in the hands of large US corporations with big pockets. C'mon, guys, cooperate; do you want LWN banned from China? All those hackers left dry week after week? Please!
China Daily is good Posted Sep 2, 2005 8:46 UTC (Fri) by iottmco (guest, #32207) [Link] Recently, I cannot access groklaw.I have to tunnel my proxy via ssh.
The great China firewall also blocks numerous other law based blogs as well as my own innocent old academic page. <sigh>
I have a friend who is a musician here in Shanghai (some fantastic musicians in Shanghai), his website recently joined the list of blocked websites for no reason...
Anyway... China besides its growing pains... is a great place!
Great Firewall Posted Sep 5, 2005 7:27 UTC (Mon) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] Not just recently... it has been that way for at least a year. Who knows why they block some things and not others? No accountability, no oversight, not the least bit transparent. I really hope it doesn't become the standard model for countries to "protect" their citizens.
Open opposition (China Daily) Posted Sep 12, 2005 6:25 UTC (Mon) by chiromancer (guest, #10692) [Link] Actually Sun Yufang already died on Jan 13th 2005, if you can read Chinese:http://www.pku.org.cn/data/detail.jsp?articleID=2969
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