The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
If this saying is true, one might well wonder: why has it taken the community so long to develop a truly capable personal finance manager? Almost every developer will have a checking account of some variety, bills to pay, taxes to deal with, etc. Tracking accounts in paper registers is tedious and error prone - and nearly impossible once a few complications (such as, say, a spouse whose attention to detail in these matters is sporadic at best, not that your editor would know about such things, honest) are thrown in. Keeping track of one's finances is clearly a job for a computer.
Be that as it may, this is an area which has not drawn much attention from the development community. There has long been little choice for those wanting a free finance manager, and the available applications have lagged behind the proprietary offerings. Perhaps all those desktop hackers are simply pretending not to notice as their spouses balance their checkbooks with Quicken.
That said, the situation is not all bad. Your editor has managed his eternally frightening finances with free software for some years. In more recent times, the number of available packages with a minimum of useful functionality has grown. So it's time for your editor to put together a review of what's available. Personal finance managers are complex applications; as a result, a comprehensive review will be long. This review will be done in two parts; this part looks at basic account functionality, while the next will cover more advanced features.
There are a number of projects out there, but this review will concentrate on three of them. Many of the others have not advanced beyond a simple list of transactions, and many of them have seen no development for years. There are also a few proprietary alternatives available for Linux, but they will not be reviewed here.
This review looks at:
- GnuCash. This package is the
reigning champion of free money managers; it was first reviewed in LWN in
1999. The most recent release is 1.8.11, which came out in February,
2005. GnuCash is a GNOME application, but it has not yet made the
transition to GTK2.
As we will see, GnuCash remains the most featureful of the free money managers, though the others are starting to catch up. This package also has high aspirations: it would like to be a full accounting package suitable for use in businesses as well as at home. So, GnuCash is unique in using double entry bookkeeping for all accounts. This is a mixed blessing; the business-related features of GnuCash have been slow to mature, and they seem to have distracted some attention from the personal finance side of the application.
Nonetheless, GnuCash is the program to beat in the free software community. For this reason, both of the other programs reviewed here are able to import data from GnuCash files.
- Grisbi is a GNOME-based money
manager with a distinctly European feel - in fact, the program is
developed primarily in French, with an English-language version only
becoming available in 2004. Much of the documentation still lacks an
English translation. The current version of Grisbi is 0.5.7, released
in June, 2005.
- The leading KDE-based application is KMyMoney. Like GnuCash, KMyMoney aims high, and would like to be useful for small business needs. It features double-entry accounting, but lacks some of the other features implemented by GnuCash. KMyMoney 0.8 was released in August, 2005.
First impressions
First impressions matter, especially when one is dealing with one's money. So Grisbi's initial screen - essentially a large, empty, gray box with a small menu bar on top - can be a bit disconcerting. A personal finance manager should be designed to work well for people who are not particularly familiar with computers, so it would be polite, when starting from the beginning, to lead the user through some sort of initial setup. Or, at least, give a pointer in that direction.
KMyMoney starts in the usual manner for KDE applications - slowly, and with a lot of strange stuff written to the standard output. Once you get past that, a splash screen comes up, followed by a window with a place to click to go through a set of setup screens. It asks for a bunch of personal information, the purpose of which is not entirely clear. Next, the user gets to pick a "base currency," with the Afghani being the rather unhelpful default. Almost every imaginable currency is available, from the Mongolian Tugrik to "Gold." After picking from a directory of account templates (they could have set a default from the currency the user just chose, but don't), the user lands in the main KMyMoney2 screen.
GnuCash throws up a "tip of the day," immediately overlaid by a little window giving an opportunity to create accounts from scratch or import a QIF file. The former option yields a "druid" which enables a choice of currency and presents a set of common accounts to create. GnuCash arguably has the most capable and friendly startup mechanism, but it must be said that its continued use of GTK1 shows. It simply is not as pretty as other GNOME applications, large pulldown menus (currency choice, for example) cannot be navigated with the scroll wheel, and it feels generally older.
Account creation
One way or another, users will have to create accounts in their shiny new finance manager. So each application provides an account creation screen. We'll get into those shortly, but, first, it's worth looking at the types of accounts which are supported by each application.
- A money manager must support accounts which hold money. All three
of them understand basic bank accounts - KMyMoney distinguishes
between checking and savings accounts, though it is not clear how it
treats them differently. All three have "cash" accounts - bank
accounts without the bank, essentially.
- Another common feature is accounts for liabilities - loans, credit
cards, etc. Grisbi provides only a single "liability" account.
GnuCash adds credit card accounts as a separate type, while KMyMoney
goes even further with a separate loan account type.
- All three packages have accounts for assets - a place to keep track of
the value of your car, for example. Many dotcom veterans will
appreciate this; it makes the "net worth" calculation look much nicer
if you can include the value of that 1999 Ferrari. GnuCash has a
separate "equity" account type which is used for initial conditions -
your net worth before GnuCash entered the picture. The equity account
is needed to make all of the double-entry accounts balance out.
- GnuCash is alone in having income and expense accounts. This type of
account is required if you are going to do double-entry bookkeeping -
every transaction must be represented as a transfer between accounts.
Since KMyMoney claims double-entry capability as well, it presumably
implements a similar type of account, but they are presented to the
user as "categories."
- Grisbi does not have any sort of account for investments. There is a
general "investment" account type in KMyMoney; GnuCash, instead,
provides separate currency, stock and mutual fund account types.
- Finally, GnuCash has "accounts payable" and "accounts receivable" account types which are used with its small business features.
GnuCash takes a "one big window" approach to account creation - everything
one may wish to add is to be found there. Some of the fields are obvious,
others less so. "Commodity" is, for most accounts, the currency in which
the account is denominated. The "account code" is a number which,
seemingly, only affects the order in which the accounts are sorted in the
main window. It is nice to have the control, but a modern user expects to
be able to effect that sort of ordering just by dragging the accounts
around. The account type must be chosen from a tiny, scrolling window.
With GnuCash, one must also choose a "parent account," because accounts are
stored in a hierarchical manner.
What the GnuCash account creation window lacks is any way of creating accounts (such as mortgages) involving regular, complicated payments. That capability does exist, but it is to be found deeply under the "actions" menu in the main window. The "Mortgage/Loan Druid" is highly capable, though with some strange defaults (interest rate of 0.001%, for example). It understands things like escrow accounts and mortgage insurance, and can set up everything which is needed to track the loan. It gives every impression of being a feature which was bolted on relatively late in the game, however.
KMyMoney has the slickest new account creation dialogs. A request to
create an account leads to a series of graphics-heavy windows appropriate for the type of
the account. Unlike GnuCash, KMyMoney tracks "institutions" as separate
entities, and can (optionally) associate accounts with them. Accounts
involving regular payments (such as credit cards) will draw an offer to set
up a scheduled transaction. Setting up a loan requires entering interest
and payment information as well. The mortgage mechanism is a little less
sophisticated (it does not understand escrow accounts, for example), but it
has everything which is truly needed.
KMyMoney implements hierarchical accounts, but there is no way, in the account creation process, to specify where in the hierarchy an account should be created. Accounts can be moved later, however.
Creating an account with Grisbi starts with selecting the account type.
Then the main application window is taken over by a form where the relevant
information can be filled in. Grisbi, like KMyMoney, keeps track of
financial institutions. Grisbi accounts can also have minimum balances
associated with them; running an account below the minimum yields a
warning.
Grisbi accounts have a currency associated with them; your editor was somewhat surprised to see that the Euro was the only option provided. As much as your editor would have rather had all of his accounts in Euro over the last few years, that is not the case. Currencies, as it turns out, are one of the stranger corners of the Grisbi interface. It is possible to change the list of "known currencies" under the Edit->Preferences menu. Clicking on the "Add" button yields the usual lengthy list of currencies, sorted in a way seemingly designed to force both North Americans and Europeans to scroll for a long time before finding anything useful. Once the currency has been "added," it is available for use in new accounts. But this dialog is not available until at least one account has been created. So those of us unlucky enough to have our accounts in $US must first create a throwaway Euro account before adding our native currency (which Grisbi clearly knows about) to the "known currencies" list.
Grisbi has no notion of hierarchical accounts, and no "druids" for the addition of more complicated accounts.
Entering transactions
Personal finance applications offer no end of features and capabilities to users. What most of those users will spend their time actually doing, however, is entering transactions into the program. It would thus make sense for those working on this kind of software to focus a great deal of effort toward making this task quick, easy, and relatively easy to get right.
GnuCash is the clear winner in this area. The register window has all of
the information required, and is highly configurable. Transactions can be
entered quickly, with no need to use the mouse once the process is
started. GnuCash remembers transactions, so it can expand names and cut
back on typing. Nicely, it seems to have some way of tracking which
descriptions are used most often, so the suggested expansion is usually the
one you want. For payees which have been seen before, GnuCash will fill in
the transfer account (read "category") and the dollar amount seen the
previous time. As a result, many transactions can be entered with very few
keystrokes. The only slight glitch is that the transaction memory is local
to each account, so things do not always expand when one might expect them
to.
GnuCash allows the date to be changed with the + and - keys (= works in place of +, saving wear on the little finger). A + in the number field will generate the next check number. This number is calculated from whatever was entered last, rather than from the largest number ever seen; this feature is much appreciated in households where more than one checkbook is in use for the same account. Unfortunately, there is no way for GnuCash to help effect any control over what the spouse does with that other checkbook.
The KMyMoney register, instead, is harder to work with. Starting a new
transaction requires an action with the mouse. Thereafter, everything can
be done with the keyboard, but more keystrokes are required. When GnuCash
proposes an expansion for a payee, a single tab is sufficient to accept it,
set the category, and move the cursor to the amount field. KMyMoney
requires a combination of tabs and carriage returns before it will move on
to the category field - and, if you get the combination wrong, it will
simply enter an incomplete transaction.
Several fields must be tabbed through to get to the
amount. KMyMoney will remember categories and amounts (but only after you
find and turn on the relevant configuration option).
KMyMoney can also guess check numbers (again, after an option has been explicitly turned on), but it is a simple "biggest yet" calculation with no attention to the numbers the user is entering at the time. The check number cannot be incremented or decremented with any keys that your editor was able to find. KMyMoney will warn the user if a transaction with a duplicate number is about to be entered; GnuCash does not perform that check. The date can be adjusted using the up and down arrows, but something inspired the KMyMoney developers to have the arrow keys adjust the year of the transaction by default. Even your editor does not normally get quite that far behind in his checkbook maintenance; it should not be necessary to hit two right-arrows to be able to change the day of the month.
KMyMoney requires the user to choose between five different types of transaction to enter: checks, deposits, transfers, withdrawals, and "ATM." GnuCash has done away with that distinction; everything is a transfer. Things are simpler that way; there should be no need to categorize transactions for the application in this manner.
While KMyMoney is, in many ways, a very nice application, the slower transaction entry process would, on its own, be enough to disqualify it as far as your editor is concerned. Fortunately, none of the issues mentioned here should be particularly hard to fix.
In many ways, Grisbi almost gets transaction entry right. It is possible
to get through most of the form by tabbing, payees are expanded and
previous information substituted, and check numbers are guessed based on
what was entered previously. Your editor had some difficulty at the
beginning, where Grisbi was convinced that transactions were being entered
in Euro; since the account was in dollars, Grisbi asked for a conversion
factor. Once told to use dollars for transactions, however, Grisbi
remembered - but transactions should default to the currency associated
with the account.
Dates can be adjusted with + and -. Unlike GnuCash (and a number of other programs), Grisbi does not accept = as a substitute for +. Each Grisbi transaction always starts with the current date; it would be more useful to use the date of the previous transaction, as GnuCash and KMyMoney do. But the truly obnoxious feature is that Grisbi assumes that all transactions are done with a credit card (for a checking account, even), and telling it that a check is involved requires using the mouse. That slows down the entire process.
GnuCash is also able to work with banks supporting the (German) Home Banking Computer Information (HBCI) protocol, but your editor, lacking bank accounts in Germany, was unable to test this feature.
There is much to be said for not typing in transactions at all. Quite a few banks will make transaction information available via the OFX/QFX file format, and all three programs reviewed here are able to import that format. GnuCash sorts imported transactions into three piles - those which it cannot import at all, those which need to manually have transfer accounts (categories) set, and those for which it was able to guess categories itself. The category assignment process is a bit cumbersome (it would be nicer if the same interface was used here as in the register) but effective. The automatic assignments appear error prone, so one needs to glance them over before finishing the task.
Grisbi will simply import the whole set of transactions into the indicated account with no category information at all; the user must go in afterward and fix things up one by one. Unfortunately, your editor was unable to build OFX support for KMyMoney.
Reconciliation
The other common time-consuming task performed with personal finance managers is account reconciliation, otherwise known as the process of figuring out why the bank thinks you have less money than you thought you had. The reconciliation process tends to be tedious, with occasional unpleasant surprises. A finance manager can do nothing about the financial pain involved in reconciliation, but it should at least make the process as quick and straightforward as possible.
The GnuCash reconciliation process starts with a request for a statement
date and ending balance. GnuCash attempts to come up with a default date,
but the results are occasionally strange. The window also asks whether
subaccounts should be included in the process, and gives the opportunity to
enter an interest payment. The actual reconciliation window contains two
panes; GnuCash, unlike other programs, separates deposits and debits for
this process. The key by which items are sorted can be selected by
clicking on the column heading - a nice feature if you like to have checks
listed in number order, rather than by date. Reconciling items is a simple
matter of clicking on them. Double-clicking on an item will bring up a
register window with the cursor at that item, allowing quick corrections to
be made. The register window can also be used to enter new transactions
(all those ATM withdrawals you forgot, for example) at any time.
The reconciliation process in KMyMoney is similar; during the setup phase,
it also allows the entry of bank charges, however. The reconciliation
window has a single pane, with deposits and debits mixed together and
sorted in date order. There does not appear to be any way to change the
sorting order. Double-clicking on a transaction allows it to be edited in
place. KMyMoney allows the user to "postpone" the completion of the
reconciliation process, and will remember the relevant information for the
next time.
The Grisbi reconciliation option is hard to find - it is not anywhere in
the menubar. Instead, one must go to the "transactions" window, then
hit the "reconcile" button on the lower left. Statement information is
then entered in the left column; there is no provision for the entry of
interest payments or bank fees. Clicking on transactions will cause them
to be marked as reconciled (at least, one assumes that "P" means reconciled
in some language); double-clicking allows them to be edited in the bottom
part of the window. The process is ended with the "OK" button on the lower
left; that button is not active until everything balances out (there is no
"postpone" option).
Conclusion to Part I
With the features described above, any of these three programs can be used to keep track of a set of bank accounts. Personal finance programs can offer much more, however. The second part of this article will cover some of the other capabilities expected of a contemporary finance application, including:
- Scheduled transactions - tracking (and reminding about) payment which
are to happen in the future.
- Loan tracking, including tracking the current principal balance.
- Reports. Can you see where the money is going, how it got there, and
make a nice pie chart out of it?
- Investment tracking: stocks and funds, dividend reinvestments, capital
gains, use of online price information, etc.
- Budget creation and tracking.
If space and time allow, the second part may also include a look at the business features offered by GnuCash. Or that part may have to wait for the Exceedingly Grumpy Editor's Guide to Small Business Accounting Packages.
Your editor's final comment is this: for many years, there was only one free personal finance application of any note: GnuCash. It is now interesting to see there are three viable programs out there. The situation has changed significantly - for the better - over the past year. Come back for the second part (to be published, probably, near the beginning of October) to complete the tour of what these programs can do, and a final recommendation from the editor.
[Part 2 is now available]
Posted Sep 13, 2005 21:04 UTC (Tue)
by foo@share-foo.com (guest, #7940)
[Link] (10 responses)
KMyMoney starts in the usual manner for KDE applications - slowly, and with a lot of strange stuff written to the standard output. STDOUT? What's that? Everyone knows that KDE apps are supposed to be started from the the big K menu.
Posted Sep 13, 2005 21:21 UTC (Tue)
by Ross (guest, #4065)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 13, 2005 23:11 UTC (Tue)
by pynm0001 (guest, #18379)
[Link]
Posted Sep 13, 2005 21:44 UTC (Tue)
by atai (subscriber, #10977)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 13, 2005 22:19 UTC (Tue)
by hawk (subscriber, #3195)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 0:29 UTC (Wed)
by dlang (guest, #313)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 21:25 UTC (Wed)
by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501)
[Link]
Posted Sep 23, 2005 7:03 UTC (Fri)
by rqosa (subscriber, #24136)
[Link]
Posted Sep 13, 2005 23:55 UTC (Tue)
by bk (guest, #25617)
[Link]
Posted Sep 13, 2005 22:44 UTC (Tue)
by danielthaler (guest, #24764)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 13:58 UTC (Wed)
by nix (subscriber, #2304)
[Link]
Posted Sep 13, 2005 23:04 UTC (Tue)
by newren (subscriber, #5160)
[Link] (3 responses)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 0:33 UTC (Wed)
by arcticwolf (guest, #8341)
[Link]
Posted Sep 14, 2005 6:03 UTC (Wed)
by phip (guest, #1715)
[Link]
Posted Sep 14, 2005 8:50 UTC (Wed)
by BenR (guest, #30999)
[Link]
LWN.net paycheck - $57.32
Posted Sep 14, 2005 5:09 UTC (Wed)
by jstAusr (guest, #27224)
[Link] (2 responses)
But what would be the correct default? I should think that the closer that default got to reality the more chance the user would think an incorrect calculation was correct. Unless the default happened be be exactly correct of course. In other words, if the user failed to put in a corrected rate it probably would be better that the default calculation is as obviously wrong as possible.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 5:47 UTC (Wed)
by khim (subscriber, #9252)
[Link] (1 responses)
>>though with some strange defaults (interest rate of 0.001%, for example) > But what would be the correct default? I should think that the closer that default got to reality the more chance the user would think an incorrect calculation was correct. Unless the default happened be be exactly correct of course. In other words, if the user failed to put in a corrected rate it probably would be better that the default calculation is as obviously wrong as possible. Then why the hell standard interest rate was selected instead ? 0.001% is standard interest rate in most Japanese banks (not exactly correct, of course: there are 30% tax, so actual interest rate is 0.0007% - but may be taxes are counted elsewhere in GnuCash).
Posted Sep 14, 2005 6:18 UTC (Wed)
by jstAusr (guest, #27224)
[Link]
Posted Sep 14, 2005 7:26 UTC (Wed)
by hingo (guest, #14792)
[Link] (27 responses)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 9:00 UTC (Wed)
by chrispe (subscriber, #4442)
[Link] (12 responses)
I once used Quicken for about two days before saying "what's the point?"
Why do the Americans still use cheques for salaries? Maybe it's a cultural thing; Perhaps they feel cheated unless the numbers pass through their fingers on the way to their bank accounts?
Posted Sep 14, 2005 12:35 UTC (Wed)
by lwn163 (guest, #11797)
[Link] (6 responses)
For the things that I do keep track of electronically, I've been using an
Posted Sep 14, 2005 13:19 UTC (Wed)
by kleptog (subscriber, #1183)
[Link]
Here in the Netherlands they experimented with cheques but the fraud was so bad that they killed it fairly quickly. Here it works in reverse, the bill has a tear off section with the account number of the account to be paid to. You fill your account number and sign it and send it to *your* bank, no third party involvement. So it's more like payment authorisation.
I worked in a company in Australia that accepted cheques and they were the single most annoying method of payment. First the customer sends it to you. You have to copy by hand the details into the system to record the payment. Then you take all the cheques to the bank. Three days later you find out which cheques bounced due to insufficient funds. You then have to undo the payment in the system, add the bank fee to the account, contact the customer who then hopefully pays some other way. Ugh! Gimme electronic payment anyday.
If the customer doesn't have the money, why should I care? Why am I even involved in the process?
I wouldn't mind if cheques disappeared from the face of the earth.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 15:08 UTC (Wed)
by NAR (subscriber, #1313)
[Link] (4 responses)
I think you don't need checks for this. Even though my salary goes directly to my bank account, I get a quite detailed paper about this (which also includes the money that didn't get to my account, e.g. taxes). My bills are atomatically payed from my account and I get a paper from the electricity company, from the gas company, etc. When I pay with the debit card, I get receipts, just like when I get cash from the ATM. And I also get a monthly summary from the bank about my accounts on paper.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 19:02 UTC (Wed)
by smoogen (subscriber, #97)
[Link]
Posted Sep 15, 2005 7:19 UTC (Thu)
by ekj (guest, #1524)
[Link]
The point is, to be able to make wise decisions about your finances, the first needed step is to *know* what your finances actually are. This doesn't mean only how much money you have, and how much you spent, but also what you spent it on.
Using Gnucash I can easily and quickly answer questions like:
Sure, you can answer all of those without a personal finance program, but it gets complicated and tedious. Especially when you, for example, own stock on an exchange where courses are given in norwegian-krone, pay fees associated with that to a brokerage wanting british-pound, live in and have most of your transactions in Euros.
Posted Sep 22, 2005 13:50 UTC (Thu)
by sphealey (guest, #1028)
[Link] (1 responses)
> I think you don't need checks for this. Even though my
Consumer fraud / consumer protection laws are extremely weak in the United States, and in any dispute those laws greatly favor the entity with the most money and most political power. Which 99.99999% of the time is not the consumer.
Should you as a consumer end up in a dispute with a creditor or vendor of any type (particularly a financial institution), your _only_ hope is to have actual paper records of everything and to have sent every transaction via US Mail. As soon as you start bringing forth phone calls, e-mails, and electronic transactions as evidence the presumption of liability shifts to you and you lose. Guaranteed.
So while their is an element of conservatism in the continued use of checks/cheques, for those who are concerned about such things there is an element of self-preservation as well.
sPh
Posted Sep 24, 2005 6:21 UTC (Sat)
by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385)
[Link]
To date I have received every electronic payment on time, even in cases were major technical problems with the payment systems (either on my employer's end or at the bank) would seem likely to interfere. Hundreds of payments with no errors...just what I'd expect from properly maintained and supervised information systems.
These days I can barely avoid chuckling when I hand over an arbitrary piece of paper with no authentication beyond a signature to a bank teller...how could such a lame protocol actually work? Well, with a failure rate in the low double digits and an ongoing fraud/anti-fraud arms race, clearly, it *doesn't* work.
In the worst case, all one has to do is get the bank and the creditor/vendor on a conference call, read out the transaction confirmation number from your statement or electronic payment, then sit back and listen while they argue about where the money went.
So far it works every time. Usually what happens is that the creditor/vendor finally admits that their payment data is imported through a human data entry clerk, a fax machine, highly buggy third-party software, or by reading transaction details over the phone...or some combination of these. Maybe someone has typed in the wrong account numbers or the wrong amounts. Some companies have a 3-6 month (!) lag between accounts receivable and accounts billable. Sometimes, when the creditor/vendor finally figures out where your money went, you get to hear a meaty slapping, tearing, or rustling sound over the phone, as if someone is slapping their forehead or pulling out their hair.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 12:47 UTC (Wed)
by MortFurd (guest, #9389)
[Link] (2 responses)
Also, the phrase "balancing my checkbook" has sort of gotten stuck in the American english language. It means balancing your bank account.
Many people do use credit cards and debit cards to pay their bills and purchase things at the store and don't use checks much at all.
Also, using a check gives me immediate control of what is going on with my account without depending on the bank. Balancing a checkbook is a check to see that I've managed my money properly, but it is also a check to see if the bank is doing its job properly. If you blindly trust your bank to handle your funds, and an online check of your balance make you happy then fine. Some people would, however, like to do the arithmetic themselves and be certain.
Considering how online banking runs (think of all the phishing going on,) I would not want to do online banking in most countries. In Germany, I feel pretty secure about it. I use HBCI (with GNUCash) to pay my bills and check my balance.
HBCI uses a smart card to encrypt and decrypt communications with the bank. Only the bank's server and my card have the correct keys. GNUCash sends an encrypted packet that claims to be from me to my bank. The bank server pulls up my key and tries to decode the packet if it succeeds, then I am me and the bank does what ever the packet says (bank transfer, balance request, etc.) There could potentially be a weak spot in the encryption (or someone could steal a truck load of backup tapes with the keys,) but all in all much more trust worthy than https and a PIN. The bank is sure who I am, and I can be pretty damn sure that I'm talking to the bank since they encrypt their responses as well.
Lacking a truly secure way to do bank tranfers from home or from the office, I can well understand why businesses would stick with checks.
Also, I've never understood the advantage of the paper bank transfer forms. To use one, I must go to the bank to pay my bills. In earlier days, this was free. These days, most banks charge for handling the paper form. As an alternative, they let you use a terminal in the lobby for free to pay your bills electronically - but you still have to go to the bank to do it.
With checks you can hand them to the employee, or you can mail a payment to whoever. Bank transfers (if you don't have trustworthy home banking) requires a trip to the bank.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 18:47 UTC (Wed)
by oak (guest, #2786)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 15, 2005 12:56 UTC (Thu)
by fjf33 (guest, #5768)
[Link]
Posted Sep 14, 2005 17:25 UTC (Wed)
by jwb (guest, #15467)
[Link]
Of course I still use cash for most thing. Perhaps I'm terribly backwards.
Posted Sep 15, 2005 22:03 UTC (Thu)
by goeran (subscriber, #151)
[Link]
Why do they use inches and feet? Farenheit temperatures? Paper format called "letter" rather than A4?
:-)
Posted Sep 14, 2005 10:31 UTC (Wed)
by eru (subscriber, #2753)
[Link]
In fact that was done in Finland even before there were such things as
web sites. I started using my banks electronic banking service around 1986.
The menu-based interface was written so that it could be used with any text
terminal (no cursor control needed). A bit kludgy but worked. Customers who
signed in for the service got a little instruction booklet together with a
floppy containing Kermit for MS-DOS...
Posted Sep 14, 2005 11:59 UTC (Wed)
by nelljerram (subscriber, #12005)
[Link]
(Just in case you were, try using your bank's website to produce a chart of how your balance has varied over the year, or how much you spend on food vs. travel vs. telephone bills, or a summary of your assets from multiple bank accounts, etc. etc.)
Neil
Posted Sep 14, 2005 16:41 UTC (Wed)
by carcassonne (guest, #31569)
[Link] (4 responses)
In Germany many transactions are done using popular Ueberweisungen, either on paper or virtually at your bank's web site. They are simply bank transfers. They are free and you can transfer money to anyone having an account at AnyBank. Utilities sending bills also send a Ueberweisung, which is a bank transfer formular already filled with their information.
You buy something off e-bay ? You get the seller's name, account number and bank name and there you go. You log in at your bank's web site and fill out a virtual bank transfer formular. Direct from your bank to his/her bank, no middleman service like Paypal or whatever. And it's free.
And no giving out your credit card information.
Of interest (still no pun), the security aspect of using such virtual bank transfer. Here's how it works:
1) You go to your bank and you ask for a series of TAN (transaction) numbers.
2) You receive then personally a list, on paper, of 50 such numbers.
3) You access your account on the internet using your password.
4) When you make a bank transfer you use one of the numbers on your list. You scratch that number and use another one for the next transaction.
5) When you're about to run out of TAN numbers, you go back to the bank to get a new list.
6) If you loose your printed list (it happened to me once) then you have to tell a good story to the bank clerk. I'd say that if you loose it twice in a row it could be difficult to get a new one.
You cannot make a bank transfer from your account if you don't have a valid list of TAN numbers that were issued to you.
You can also give out your bank account number for companies to take money. Like when buying from Amazon.de for instance. Again, no credit card info needed, no interest fee (even small) to pay, no middleman service to pay.
So everything is paid by using these bank transfers in Germany. Rent, doctors, insurance, e-bay buyings, everything. Rest is by cash and ATM card.
Now, how come there's still no teletext feature on TVs in North America ? ;-))
Posted Sep 15, 2005 17:18 UTC (Thu)
by NAR (subscriber, #1313)
[Link] (3 responses)
4) When you make a bank transfer you use one of the numbers on your list. You scratch that number and use another one for the next transaction.
My bank simply sends a text message to my mobile phone after the username/password login with a secondary one-time password. This is needed not only to finish the login, but for starting transactions, modifying card limits, etc.
Posted Sep 15, 2005 19:03 UTC (Thu)
by mightyduck (guest, #23760)
[Link] (2 responses)
Posted Sep 16, 2005 6:29 UTC (Fri)
by man_ls (guest, #15091)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 16, 2005 14:55 UTC (Fri)
by mightyduck (guest, #23760)
[Link]
Posted Sep 14, 2005 22:20 UTC (Wed)
by shane (subscriber, #3335)
[Link] (5 responses)
The idea of handing someone a piece of paper, which they then hand to their bank, and their bank sends to my bank, seems extremely quaint.
Just another example of an extremely poor quality business that people accept because it never occurred to them that they should not have to accept it. :(
Posted Sep 15, 2005 17:38 UTC (Thu)
by macc (guest, #510)
[Link] (1 responses)
i.e. when a bill is due you send the check on the day its due.
But snailmail takes 2 Days and the recipient has to carry it
This gives you about a week of credit
Posted Sep 15, 2005 17:50 UTC (Thu)
by rogerd (guest, #4170)
[Link]
Even our US system calls that fraud, and will prosecute people for it.
I think the last Banking bill here made it allowable to post an electronic copy of a check as if it were physically received, thereby reducing the "check's in the mail" timeframe down to the speed of light transit.
Posted Sep 15, 2005 19:09 UTC (Thu)
by mightyduck (guest, #23760)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 15, 2005 23:26 UTC (Thu)
by lothar (guest, #14052)
[Link]
Posted Sep 16, 2005 23:48 UTC (Fri)
by giraffedata (guest, #1954)
[Link]
Actually, there is normally at least one other stop between the banks, and often several.
But starting one year ago, the transfer is hardly ever paper. The paper check gets put into a computer and shredded as it enters the system, and makes the rest of the journey as an electronic record. But in some cases, it actually gets printed out and becomes paper again, because some smaller banks don't have the electronic check technology. The complexity of such a system (think about all the safeguards necessary to make sure a check doesn't accidentally become two checks as it changes form) made it take years for the US banking system to take even this step.
I'm not sure who you think is accepting what poor quality. There are people who demand to be paid with a physical instrument and others who demand to pay with a physical instrument. Banks aren't forcing anyone to accept anything -- they all handle checkless transactions for people who want them. Virtually no businesses force customers to pay by check, because there are banking services that will convert a customer's electronic payment into a paper check where the business does demand one, and businesses that take a check but not plastic at point of sale are extremely rare.
I suspect countries which have managed to eliminate checks already have done it through the use of central management of the banking system, which is lacking in the US. And it's lacking not because the folks in charge of it are too stupid to see its advantages, but because deep cultural values in the US say government should be local -- the banking rules are made primarily by individual state governments, private banking associations, and invidivual banks.
Posted Sep 24, 2005 5:51 UTC (Sat)
by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385)
[Link]
(OK, the offending bank did actually fix their web site a year or two ago. But at the time the customer support people were quite belligerent about any failure of their site to work with any particular browser being my problem.)
This is one thing I haven't been able to figure out. I've used no less than five financial institutions over the years, and only one of them was accessible with w3m...until they "upgraded" their web site a year or two ago. There is no reason to use Javascript on a bank web page--the transactions and dialogs are more or less exactly what HTML forms were designed to do. I've seen bank sites that theoretically would work properly without Javascript and use no features not present in HTML forms from the RFC1860's, *except* that there is an explicit Javascript check on the back end.
Banking with w3m, while it lasted, was nice: I'm logged in and out and finished a bill payment in under 30 seconds, which is about the login page loading time of the Javascript banks...
Posted Sep 14, 2005 13:31 UTC (Wed)
by fatrat (guest, #1518)
[Link] (7 responses)
Sadly, having gone through looking at KMyMoney and GnuCash last year, I ended up paying money for Moneydance. It's not only much, much nicer to use but being a Java app is cross platform.
Free software has a way to go in this area yet I feel. Even the best (GnuCash IMO) isn't nearly as good as the commercial stuff out there.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 15:29 UTC (Wed)
by rogerd (guest, #4170)
[Link]
I installed Moneydance in 199x sometime and used it ever since. Even upgraded once or twice. Laughed in the face of Y2K. The ability of running a Linux/Java app remotely on an wireless XP laptop is what keeps me using Linux for the long term.
Posted Sep 14, 2005 19:50 UTC (Wed)
by sjj (guest, #2020)
[Link] (5 responses)
Posted Sep 15, 2005 9:09 UTC (Thu)
by fatrat (guest, #1518)
[Link] (4 responses)
It's a commercial non-open source program and our Grumpy Editor did say he was not going to look at commercial products. If you want to look at it, you can download a copy to play with.
Posted Sep 15, 2005 13:08 UTC (Thu)
by dayers (guest, #1602)
[Link] (1 responses)
I used gnucash for a while, but md is much, much better, IMO.
Posted Sep 16, 2005 15:27 UTC (Fri)
by jstAusr (guest, #27224)
[Link]
Posted Sep 16, 2005 8:19 UTC (Fri)
by guybar (guest, #798)
[Link] (1 responses)
Posted Sep 17, 2005 18:40 UTC (Sat)
by jstAusr (guest, #27224)
[Link]
Also, I worry about lock-in on programs like that and have no interest in them. Oh, sorry folks we've sold out to the monopoly I'm sure they will meet your future needs.
Posted Sep 15, 2005 22:53 UTC (Thu)
by wolfgang.oertl (subscriber, #7418)
[Link]
Posted Sep 16, 2005 4:54 UTC (Fri)
by 4bruck (guest, #4508)
[Link] (2 responses)
How do the various 'checkless' systems in the world deal with persons who don't have a bank account ?
And what about micro-businesses who don't have the capability to accept a bankcard [debit or credit] ?
Posted Sep 20, 2005 14:38 UTC (Tue)
by Felix.Braun (guest, #3032)
[Link] (1 responses)
I guess the short answer would be that this doesn't occur.
At least I haven't met anybody in my life that doesn't have a bank account. Here in Germany Bank accounts are free for students and not exactly expensive for the rest of the population (the reason for this, I belive, is that we have a strong market penetration of state run Banks "Sparkassen", one thing that the private sector banks don't stop complaining about.)
Money transfers work between any two bank accounts. There is no need for any bankcard to be involved. If you purchase something, the seller writes an invoice, you transfer the money to her account either before or after you get the merchandise. It's as simple as that. But then, maybe I'm missing the point of the question?
Posted Sep 22, 2005 14:05 UTC (Thu)
by cbraxton (guest, #32611)
[Link]
Well, I don't have a bank account, and know quite a few others who don't. Here in the U.S. it's not terribly unusual -- in fact most cities of any size have check cashing shops that cater to individuals without bank accounts. (They will cash checks, sell inexpensive money orders, accept payments for utilities, etc.)
Posted Sep 19, 2005 12:16 UTC (Mon)
by dvdeug (guest, #10998)
[Link]
Posted Sep 22, 2005 10:29 UTC (Thu)
by joib (subscriber, #8541)
[Link]
Posted Dec 28, 2005 21:25 UTC (Wed)
by cdurst (guest, #2953)
[Link]
More importantly, it also runs on Windows, so it may be useful as a Firefox-like bridge program to help ween users off of MSFT.
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
What's really annoying is that they continue to write to stdout when they are backgrounded or even after they exit. I guess they fork some other process which does the writing... seems like a bug to me.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
This should only occur for applications which are designed to be unique The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
(that is, only one running instance at a time), as a side-effect of the
implementation.
And they don't write to stdout after exit, that's the rest of KDE, the
things like running kioslaves and the DCOP server for example.
Does KDE applications write more messages to stout than gtk+/GNOME applications?The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
I don't know about that, but most GNOME/GTK applications don't write anything to stdout. (I know of at least one exception, though.)The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
firefox sure dumps a lot of stuff out to the terminal (I don't know if that is the one exception you were thinking of, but I don't run many other gnome/gtk programs)The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
At least in Debian its output is thus redirected to /dev/nullThe Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
If I remember correctly, the version of Sylpheed that was in Debian Woody
would write things to the terminal.
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Yes. I use GNOME but start most programs from an xterm (well, gnome-terminal) and GTK2 programs are almost always polite. KDE programs, OTOH, spew lots of crap which render the terminal useless until the KDE program is killed.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Usually you can significantly reduce the amount of output from kde apps by running "kdebugdialog" and deselecting everything to turn off information output to STDOUT.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
If you run "kdebugdialog --fullmode" you can turn off warnings and errors too.
Also by compiling them with --disable-debug, which is *not* the default.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
The entries in the GnuCash screenshot are pretty amusing (so are one or two of the entries in the KMyMoney screenshot). Too bad the descriptions got truncated with the window being too small, though; it really made me wonder the location you had in mind for the "Money I found on the..." with the amount of $10000. Thanks for the laugh, Jon. ;-)The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
The entries in the other programs' screenshots are quite funny, too. I laughed out loud myself when I saw a transaction titled "Jeff Merkey - settlement", for example...The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Thanks for pointing that out. I wouldn't have bothered with the screen shots otherwise. Even without the technical content, my LWN subscription would be money well spent ;-DThe Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Other funny ones:The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
SCOSource license - $749.00
>though with some strange defaults (interest rate of 0.001%, for example)Strange defaults
Strange defaults
Well, he was writing about the Mortgage/Loan Druid. If I can borrow money in Japan at .001 annual percentage rate, please, sign me up.Strange defaults
Since we are an international community, I hope you'll forgive my (only slightly) off topic rant here...
Balancing my check account
I personally couldn't help but smiling, when reading that the grumpy editor needs a computer program to balance his checking account. I remember seeing a check (yes, I've seen one person once using a check) in Finland when I was a really small boy. After that we have been using credit cards or equivalent non-credit bank cards. And cash of course. If you want to know your account balance, just log in to your banks website and check it out :-)
True story happened to someone:
Finnish guy goes to US and US guys are amazed at his mobile phone. So he starts talking about it's features.
- And it can browse the web too.
- It can? US guy looks at him in disbelief.
- Sure, Finnish guy says. I can even log into my bank and pay my bills if I want to.
- Ahh, for a moment there I almost believed you, but now I know you're kidding me... US guy has a good laugh.
Yes, I've not been paid in paper all my working life (and I'm 34). Finland is one thing, but we're not exactly known for rapid technology uptake here in the UK.Balancing my check account
I'm not married to the idea of checks, but I do want a paper trail for most Balancing my check account
transactions, for reasons similar to why I want a paper trail for electronic
election machines (as an aside, I don't want a receipt for my vote in an
election, I just want my vote recorded on paper somewhere)
ancient (pre 1990) version of quicken on an old 286, and it is a fantastic
program. I do have uneasy feelings about its non-freeness. I think gnucash
et. al. could learn an awful lot from it. Its interface is an 80x24 text
window, everything (including menus) is keyboard driven (and most of the
features mentioned in the article are supported sanely), it is very fast
(this is on a 286 mind you), and I found it quite easy to learn.
Cheques are one of those things that varies a lot between countries. Australia has cheques but they're becoming rarer. The fees are crazy and they takes three days to clear. You want to wait three working days for your salary to be available? Most people choose for direct deposit, then it's available the next day. You're supposed to get a slip from your employer when you're paid though.About cheques...
I do want a paper trail for most transactions, for reasons similar to why I want a paper trail for electronic election machines
Balancing my check account
The real idea about balancing a check account is really to keep a budget. This is something that doesnt seem to be taught or 'learned' by people these days as can be seen by the fact that people seem to just keep using the ATM card until it says 'no more money'.Balancing my check account
Sure. But thats not the entire (or even the main) point of using an application like Gnucash.Balancing my check account
>> I do want a paper trail for most transactions, for Balancing my check account
>> reasons similar to why I want a paper trail for electronic
>> election machines
> salary goes directly to my bank account, I get a quite
> detailed paper about this (which also includes the money
> that didn't get to my account, e.g. taxes).
I've had about a 5% failure rate cashing pay checks. My bank is always ready to interpret "09/24/05" as "May 9, 1924" (despite the fact that the cheque has clearly labelled year, month, and day fields under the date area), resulting in the bank's refusal to honor the check. Handwritten checks have an even higher failure rate. In one case my check was stolen from the armored car servicing the ATM.Balancing my check account
Businesses still pay with checks because there are still people who don't have bank accounts.Balancing my check account
> using a check gives me immediate control of what is going on with my Balancing my check account
> account without depending on the bank. Balancing a checkbook is a check
> to see that I've managed my money properly, but it is also a check to
> see if the bank is doing its job properly.
At least here in Finland you get receipt whenever you pay something (food,
gas whatever) with your bank card, or when you withdraw cash with it from
the ATM.
A couple of times a month, I'll enter the receipts from my wallet to
GnuCash. Next month when the bank sends the monthly summary of all
withdraws and deposits, I'll just check whether the balance matches what I
got in GnuCash at same date. If it doesn't, I'll just check whether each
entry I'd entered to GnuCash matches what's in the bank summary. So far,
it's always been an error I've made in entering the recipe to GnuCash
(knock wood ;-)).
That is what I do too, but here in the US we would call that balancing the checkbook. I think is more differences in language than anything else. However, I still do have a checkbook which I hardly use. There are a couple of die hards that cannot handle an electronic payment. For example I had to start paying the building maintenance with a paper check because the management company was sending me notices for non-payment, and it was a pain to make them understand what was going on. The reason is that they are a small office that hardly has a computer so they are WAYYYY behind the times. Another one is my mortgage. If I want to pay extra principal I have to do it with a check so that I can send the for and let them know exactly how to break up the extra money. If not, they will apply it to where it is better for them (to the next payment probably). Everything else is electronic.Balancing my check account
The term "paycheck" is lodged deeply in the American English dialect, but it does no necessarily imply the use of paper. In fact every person in my firm, and most people I know, are paid using electronic transfer. I prefer check, because there are many terms in the direct deposit agreement that I cannot accept. For example, my company's direct deposit agreement allows them to take money from my account to cover various damages and expenses. I'm not willing to give anyone carte blanche to fool with my bank balance.Balancing my check account
> Why do the Americans still use cheques for salaries?Checks (paper form)
If you want to know your account balance, just log in to your banks website and check it out :-)
Balancing my check account
Your rant :-) is well made, but I hope you're not suggesting that these programs (GnuCash especially) are therefore no use at all outside the US.Balancing my check account
"I remember seeing a check (yes, I've seen one person once using a check) in Finland when I was a really small boy."Balancing my check account
3) You access your account on the internet using your password.
Balancing my check account
What do you do if you don't have coverage? (Yes, areas like that exist, Balancing my check account
for instance here on Long Island) You can't do online banking then?
I definitely prefer the German PIN/TAN method.
The Netherlands is flat as a pancake, I find it difficult to believe there are areas there without coverage apart from lifts and the Tube. Here in Spain you can maybe climb a high mountain and get lost, but most cities and villages are covered.
Balancing my check account
Well, compared to Europe the US is still a third world country in terms Balancing my check account
of cell phone usage and coverage ;-). But it's catching up.
I moved to the Netherlands from the US a few years ago, and from my lazy, computer-oriented view the banking system here is so much better than in the US it almost makes me weap.Strange 19th century banking
In Germany you pay by check if you are short on money.Strange 19th century banking
This is usually deemed sufficient for meeting the due-date.
to his bank and get it booked(1-2Days). After another 2-4 Days
the amount is debited to your bank account.
which some businesses and private persons
desperately need.
Check Kiting, yeah, that is what it's called.Strange 19th century banking
I moved from Germany to the US and the banking system was a big Strange 19th century banking
(negative) surprise to me. It's sooo 19th century. But it's not the only
outdated and poor thing Americans put up with. Another one are appliances
(from washing machines to microwave ovens...). Don't get me started on
that one.
You'r talking to my heart ;-) I moved to the US about two years ago (from Strange 19th century banking
Germany) and it was hard to believe what I saw. Sadly it's rality. :-)
Strange 19th century banking
The idea of handing someone a piece of paper, which they then hand to their bank, and their bank sends to my bank, seems extremely quaint.
Just another example of an extremely poor quality business that people accept because it never occurred to them that they should not have to accept it. :(
That could never happen to me, because no production cell phone on the market anywhere on the planet has 153 megabytes of free RAM to blow on my bank's Javascript login page, or the precise set of CSS and DOM bugs that Netscape 4.74 has.Balancing my check account
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
I Agree. I was running Moneydance long before GNUCash was popular.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Thanks for the pointer to Moneydance. Grumpy editor, would you include it in your review?The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Aaaw, come on! This isn't a religious issue, for all love. Since Moneydance is way ahead on features and useablity, why not give it a look? I'd rather see it the standard for comparison than Quicken.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Ah, a religious person complaining about religious people. Sounds about par.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
and our Grumpy Editor did say he was not going to look at commercial products
And with all due respect (which I have), he might have been wrong: at least as far as giving an example for what the standard in the non-free world is.
I have been curious about this for some time.
If you want to look at it, you can download a copy to play with.
Isn't the purpose of a "review" to do exactly this kind of "playing with" the products in the field, thus saving a lot of redundant work by a lot of readers ?
The license states "only for your own personal use", using it to write a review probably is not only for Grumpy Editor's personal use.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
After looking through a host of financial programs I settled with ledger, a command line tool that reads a file full of transactions (it uses the double entry system) and performs various tasks like showing the current balance. Very quick, my data is readable with any editor, as cross platform as it gets, almost no dependencies, small footprint and free. It's not the right tool for everybody, but maybe have a look: http://www.newartisans.com/ledger.html, or http://sourceforge.net/projects/ledger/The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
So, I'll ask [because I don't seem to quite understand]....The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
How do the various 'checkless' systems in the world deal with persons who don't have a bank account ?
And what about micro-businesses who don't have the capability to accept a bankcard [debit or credit] ?
> At least I haven't met anybody in my life that doesn't have a bank account.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
Why are currencies so much of a pain in all these programs? Unix locales include the currency, so there's always a good default available. If you really wanted to be fancy, you could make a list of two or three currencies of world-wide importance (Euro, US Dollar) and the currencies of the countries around the country of the user.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
There's also jgnash, which is decent if cross-platform compatibility is an issue.
The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)
If/when you decide to revisit this topic, please also include TurboCASH (http://www.turbocash-usa.com). It has been Open Source (GPL) since 2003 and from their website seems to be competitive with GNUCash.The Grumpy Editor's guide to personal finance managers (Part I)