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GTK+ 2.8.0 releasedGTK+ 2.8.0 releasedPosted Aug 14, 2005 23:12 UTC (Sun) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443)In reply to: GTK+ 2.8.0 released by bojan Parent article: GTK+ 2.8.0 released
Did you look at the title of this article? Yes, it reads "GTK+ 2.8.0 released", not "Gnome 8.4 released".
I do not use Gnome, and I will never use Gnome. But there are _many_ basic apps that depend on GTK and inherit it's braindamages(starting with Firefox).
So Gnome can do whatever it likes, but GTK, if it wants to pretend to be a Unix toolkit, it should play by the Unix rules.
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GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 14, 2005 23:22 UTC (Sun) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] Yes, I did read it. And I checked GTK web site. On the home page, word Unix appears 0 times. Word Gnome appears 4 times. So, GTK has much more to do with Gnome than it has with Unix, it would seem to appear. And, as I understand it, Gnome is built on GTK - at least that's what they say on the GTK home page.
So, Gnome, being one of the GTK based "applications" (using mostly its defaults) appears to be just fine for regular users. At least that's my experience. As I said, nothing is perfect, but I think your complaint is that GTK isn't like something else. I guess that's because GTK isn't that something else, but GTK.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 14, 2005 23:45 UTC (Sun) by segphault (guest, #27468) [Link] zarathustra said: "So Gnome can do whatever it likes, but GTK, if it wants to pretend to be a Unix toolkit, it should play by the Unix rules."
bojan said: "And I checked GTK web site. On the home page, word Unix appears 0 times. Word Gnome appears 4 times."
Darn right. It's also worth noting that it's a cross-platform toolkit, which has to be able to perform well and be comparably intuitive on both GNU/Linux and Windows systems. It's not a unix toolkit, and there is absolutely no reason why it should play exclusively by unix rules. While I think that optimal configurability is important, and I think that GTK should be able to integrate well with whatever platform it runs on, I would never characterize it as a 'unix toolkit'. It's an open source, cross-platform development toolk it, and it's portability is definitely an important feature.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 0:07 UTC (Mon) by Zarathustra (guest, #26443) [Link] Lets see, I'm running a Unix system, I expect applications to behave by the Unix rules, not by the VMS rules.
It's that so hard to understand?
I could not care less what GTK does when runs on Windows, because obviously I don't use Windows, but when running on Unix GTK apps should behave like any other Unix application.
Should Unix users be pariahs that are not even respected at their own home?
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 0:31 UTC (Mon) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] > It's that so hard to understand?
In fact, yes, it is. Who defines "Unix rules"? Why exactly should they be followed (apart to please you) in GTK? Do all applications on "Unix" (whatever that means) follow these rules? I was under the impression that Unix apps did pretty much whatever they wanted most of the time. That's why they created such an incoherent mess.
Yes, sure, with the introduction of GTK there is "yet another" set of rules to follow. Well, at least there is Gnome that is trying to introduce a "complete" desktop that follows the same rules all the time. It is not finished, sure, so we have to suffer through inconsitencies when other apps are fired up. And I'm pretty sure that GTK exists and is being developed primarily to fit into Gnome, not Unix. That's why the "Unix rules" are not a very high priority on the GTK "feature" list.
Again, if you want "Unix rules", stick to Unix applications. Don't run GTK, Gnome or whatever other applications that annoy you. Or better, patch your own GTK with "Unix rules" and enjoy.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 7:08 UTC (Mon) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] Actually, GTK was written for GIMP, before GNOME existed.
But I get the picture. There is no room for new (or old in this case) ideas
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 12:06 UTC (Mon) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] > Actually, GTK was written for GIMP, before GNOME existed.
As if that matters now. THE most important thing written in GTK is Gnome. Therefore, whatever happens with Gnome affects GTK.
> But I get the picture. There is no room for new (or old in this case) ideas in GNOME. I'm not welcome, and that's just fine.
Hey, if that's what you think the defaults are all about, that's OK. There is no requirement to use GTK or Gnome and as far as I know nobody is forced to used it because it is a "monopoly" like one other platform we know. So, feel free to be not welcome, welcome, not use it or use it.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 12:49 UTC (Mon) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] And GNOME is supposed to be the GNU Network Object Model Environment.
Explicitly called into being as part of the GNU/OS.
And explicitly hell-bent, to judge from your post (and I'll say now it's not at all clear you can speak for the project here, but the project has made decisions in the past very consistent with what you're saying, so it fits) on alienating anyone that happens to like the keystrokes, conventions, and working models of the GNU/OS as it existed before GNOME. We aren't wanted or needed in your world, obviously.
Doesn't make much sense to me. Perhaps if that is really the official policy of the project, it should change its name?
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 14:14 UTC (Mon) by elanthis (subscriber, #6227) [Link] GNU's Not UNIX. :P
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 19:57 UTC (Mon) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] Let me assure you, I cannot speak for the project at all as I haven't written a single line of Gnome code. So, all the comments are my own personal views and not those of the Gnome Foundation.
I think you are reading too much into this. I used Gnome since 1.x and when things started changing (i.e. being simplified), I protested that I miss this or that. The truth is that I don't. I was just used to doing things that way and they are just fine they way they are now.
I was just telling Ross that he's completely free to feel the way he does. It is officially OK. I personally got over it, some people can't because they probably really need those things, which is OK too. But, direction of GTK is dictated by GTK developers, many of which are Gnome folks these days. Nothing "hell-bent" about that, just reality.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 17:47 UTC (Mon) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] Sadly all the modern Mozilla/Firefox type browsers use GTK exclusively. Ifnot for that I wouldn't really care because the only other GTK apps I regularly use are XMMS and GIMP. I don't do much text entry in either so they don't bother me. I don't like using KDE apps because they start all kinds of background daemons and do strange things to the terminal they started from. I'm open to trying other browsers though.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 16, 2005 0:30 UTC (Tue) by njhurst (guest, #6022) [Link] Yep, and XMMS shows how a good Unix gui should work! I particularly love the subtle interplay between the gtk1 preferences dialog and file window, and the subtle precisely detailed main interface that is configurable and can even pixel double for those times when you can't steer your mouse down to the single pixel buttons.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 16, 2005 1:57 UTC (Tue) by Ross (subscriber, #4065) [Link] XMMS works for me. I use it becuase is very configurable and has most ofthe commonly used controls visible in a small footprint. I'm not sure if it is a great example of a Unix-like program, but at least it's no emacs or Netscape.
I do have one complaint, which is that it likes to move windows around by
Other programs like xv which have nothing to do with GTK have similar
It would be nice to be able to resize the program too (to view longer track
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 14:04 UTC (Mon) by Arker (guest, #14205) [Link] And on the front page of www.gnome.org;
What is GNOME?
GNOME is a Unix and Linux desktop suite and development platform.
GTK+ 2.8.0 released Posted Aug 15, 2005 20:03 UTC (Mon) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] Got me! Now they'll finally have to implement "Unix rules". Whatever that's supposed to mean...
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