"Helix DNA Client" source released
For the first time ever, developers can easily access the code of a commercial grade media player, integrate support for the industry-leading audio and video formats, RealAudio and RealVideo, as well as other formats, and create a robust media player for their own specific needs".
Posted Oct 30, 2002 4:14 UTC (Wed)
by Peter (guest, #1127)
[Link] (6 responses)
Sure, right when ffmpeg
is gaining the ability to play back Real streams. Nice timing. It is grand of Real to license some of those patents for use with
the helix dna client. I guess that means the ffmpeg implementation is
illegal - wonder if Real plans to start threatening suits over this.. Inventing two new free software licenses was particularly bright. I've
gotten so bored of the dozens of existing OSI-certified licenses, and am
really looking forward to the chance to pore through some new ones to see
just how they are different from the various sets of conditions I already
grok. Well, off to do just that.......
Posted Oct 30, 2002 6:09 UTC (Wed)
by robla (subscriber, #424)
[Link] (5 responses)
I can't comment on the patent issue (our legal staff doesn't like me doing that), but I can talk about some other things.
Trying to choose a license that a publically-traded company can use to open source its core technology is not easy. Sure, there are a couple dozen or so OSI-certified licenses already, but many of them are practically identical to one another, leaving only about a dozen truly unique licenses. Moreover, most of them were crafted by groups with different goals.
So, in short, please be patient with us. We really are trying to do the right thing for the community.
Rob Lanphier
Posted Oct 30, 2002 18:21 UTC (Wed)
by pj (subscriber, #4506)
[Link]
Posted Oct 30, 2002 22:31 UTC (Wed)
by Peter (guest, #1127)
[Link] (3 responses)
Well, I read the RPSL - haven't tackled the other one yet. It is actually not a bad
little (well, not so little) license. It looks to have been offered in
good faith to the free software community, unlike (say) the infamous SCSL.
I guess I came on a little strong the other day - sorry. For those who haven't read it yet, here's my take: It's viral, like the GPL, but §4.2 has an interesting twist: it contains a
built-in exception for a list of 30 other free software licenses, saying
that you can create derivative works by combining RPSL code with code under
these other licenses without putting the other code under the RPSL. Any
modifications not "independently developed without use of Covered Code" must
be released as RPSL. The license even acknowledges the problem with
combining RPSL code with (e.g.) GPL code but punts on that, effectively
saying that it is the responsibility of the copyright holder of the GPL code
to grant an exception for linking with RPSL code. In other words, both GPL and RPSL are viral, so if I take a GPL library
and link it into an RPSL application, the RPSL grants me permission to do
so, but the GPL does not, unless the library author adds a rider granting
me an exception. In any case, the combined work is neither fully
GPL nor fully RPSL. Very interesting approach indeed. Same story
with the other 29 licenses, although most of them do not present the same
problem of having to have an exception granted by the original author. (Real reserves the ability to add to the list of 30 licenses by
specifying a web site where they can list additional "Compatible Source Licenses".) Patent licenses. Their wording is interesting. They give me a perpetual
(plusgood!) license to applicable patents for use with their code,
provided of course that I abide by the RPSL. Furthermore, if I distribute
derived works, I have to do the same for any applicable patents I may
hold on the derived work. But it goes a little bit further. Their
patent grant (§2.3) does not explicitly mention the right to
make or distribute modifications (ie derived works), whereas my
patent grant (§3(b)) does mention modifications. This seems
rather carefully worded, so I wonder if it's an intentional difference or
just noise. As to the question I had originally, regarding whether ffmpeg code is
authorised to use patented algorithms, the license seems to say no:
"No patent license is granted separate from the Original Code or
combinations of the Original Code with other software or hardware"
(§5). §12.3 acknowledges that competing software is allowed to
exist (amusing, in a way), but does not grant patent licenses. One final point on patents: according to §11.1(c), I get my license
revoked immediately if I ever sue Real over patent infringement. Note that
my suit does not have to concern the software in question - basically,
if I want to use their helix library, I cannot ever sue them about
any patent infringement. Which is fine by me, as I don't have any
patents, but I would strongly recommend that IBM not put themselves
in a position to depend on RPSL code! At least if they care about defending
their vast patent portfolio, which I don't necessarily agree with either
(software patents are evil, by and large). Oh - I also get my license
revoked (§11.1(d)) if I sue any third party over patent
infringement for the RPSL code - but not other patent suits, in this
case. Interesting. Versions. The RPSL has a built-in "or any later version" clause
(§7) - but it takes care to apply itself only to "Original Code", not
derived works. For derived works, I gather, I get to decide whether to
trust Real's future license revisions. Actually, it seems that if I
hack on a Real application, I can choose not to allow §7 to apply, but
if I create a brand new application and release it as RPSL, I implicitly
allow future RPSL revisions. Hmmm, is that the intent? One other notable point: the license claims to be a click-through EULA,
which I disagree with, though I understand why a company like Real (whose
previous licenses have all been EULAs) would think this way. The first
section includes two sentences clearly borrowed from the GPL:
"You are not required to accept this License. However, nothing else grants
You permission to use, copy, modify or distribute the software or its
derivative works." (Emphasis mine.) The GPL, on the other hand, does
not restrict use, only modification and distribution. It is
my understanding that the RPSL is misleading in this way: copyright law
does not in fact restrict simple use of the software. §1 then
goes on to distinguish between different kinds of use - personal, R&D,
deployment, and external deployment (which seems to me to be a case of
"distribution", and in any case is treated the same way).
Fortunately, these distinctions do not matter much in substance - they
pretty much only affect whether or not you have to publish your source
modifications. But in any case, I do not like being misled about what
copyright law allows me to do. I also do not care for the idea that I have
to agree to this license merely to download RPSL code (§1
again). Just thought of something - by asserting that you have to agree with the
RPSL before downloading the code, this seems to erect a major
barrier to redistribution. For example, if Debian packaged this library,
they would have to add a mechanism to dselect and apt-get to
display the license before commencing the download process. This would
be doubleplus-annoying - Real, are you listening? Can you please
revise §1 to remove this restriction? Most of the rest of the license seems to be legalese. In summary, I don't have a lot of problems with this license, but I do
disagree with the assertion that I need to accept it in order to download
or use (as opposed to modify or distribute) Real's code....
Posted Oct 31, 2002 3:23 UTC (Thu)
by dthurston (guest, #4603)
[Link] (2 responses)
1.7 "Externally Deploy" means to Deploy the Covered Code in any way that may be accessed or used by anyone other than You ... This would include, for instance, putting up a web page that takes a Real file, decode it, and deliver it in some other format; this is a use that does not require making any copies of the code or binary, and so is not covered under copyright law. On the other hand, I'm a little surprised that there doesn't seem to be any restriction against someone accepting the license, downloading the code, and posting it again, sans EULA.
Posted Oct 31, 2002 4:14 UTC (Thu)
by Peter (guest, #1127)
[Link] (1 responses)
Well, they seem to be acting in good faith, having submitted the RPSL to
the OSI for certification. The question remains, I guess, whether or not
a use-restricting EULA can qualify as open source or free software. I
suspect it will pass, since the restrictions in question are not onerous.
But having to click through a license just to download, much less use, a
piece of software still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and will cause
practical problems for distributors such as Debian. (RPSL-covered software
cannot be put on an anonymous FTP server, for example.) I'd call that "public performance", which is covered by copyright law.
Then again, that interpretation of "public performance" would also include
any network server software, so maybe I'm off base.... Well, they assert that you have to accept the license before downloading
the code (which I don't believe is enforceable, but it certainly is a
common claim in the proprietary software world), so if you post the code
sans EULA, Real still claims that whoever downloads it from you must first
accept the license. Since you aren't making it possible for them to "sign"
it, I guess you would be offering the code fraudulently.
Posted Nov 3, 2002 19:39 UTC (Sun)
by ribrdb (guest, #7435)
[Link]
"Helix DNA Client" source released
Hi Peter,"Helix DNA Client" source released
Helix Community Coordiator
robla@helixcommunity.org
https://www.helixcommunity.org
What took you so long?
"Helix DNA Client" source released
preliminary exposition of RPSL
I can't comment on the patent issue (our legal staff doesn't
like me doing that), but I can talk about some other things.
It's not an oversight that this is a EULA rather than a GPL-style copyright license. In particular, the definition of "external deployment" in the RPSL covers situations that are not covered by copyright law:On "external deployment"
On "external deployment"
It's not an oversight that this is a EULA rather than a GPL-style
copyright license.
This would include, for instance, putting up a web page that
takes a Real file, decode it, and deliver it in some other format
On the other hand, I'm a little surprised that there doesn't
seem to be any restriction against someone accepting the license,
downloading the code, and posting it again, sans EULA.
If I were to download the code, package it and put it on a cd, I would be ok as long as people had to accept the license before using it, correct?
On "external deployment"