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There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh.There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh.Posted Jun 7, 2005 17:00 UTC (Tue) by jcm (subscriber, #18262)In reply to: There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. by rqosa Parent article: Yellow Dog Linux sticks with PowerPC
While I understand Apple's decision from their business perspective (they're now a company that focus's on ipods and similar stuff with a small sideline in alternative computer systems) - customers don't care what's in the box, just what the box looks like.
Anyway, it's put me off buying Apple hardware. I only own a Powerbook to run Linux and now that they have stated that they want to produce cheap white box trash, I'm not so inclined to want to buy it. I will probably buy another Powerbook (and conntribute to a very small rise in sales) at around the time that they stop making PowerPC laptops and switch to that Intel crap.
Oh well. Any good laptop makers left now? (don't say Sony anyone).
Jon.
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There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 7, 2005 17:06 UTC (Tue) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link] Jon Masters spake thusly:
> Oh well. Any good laptop makers left now?
It's not worth considering Tadpole so much these days either (I own a SPARCbook 1 laptop) because they seem desperate to pander to Intel too with their latest line of low-end kit.
Jon.
There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 7, 2005 18:17 UTC (Tue) by tjc (guest, #137) [Link] > Any good laptop makers left now? (don't say Sony anyone).Quanta and Asus.
There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 7, 2005 21:01 UTC (Tue) by joedrew (subscriber, #828) [Link] > I only own a Powerbook to run Linux and now that they have stated that they want to produce cheap white box trash
Whoa! What makes you think they want to produce cheap white box trash? If Apple switched the Motorola PowerPC currently in your laptop with an Intel, and switched all your software transparently, *would you notice*? An Apple is an Apple, regardless of the processor at its heart.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 7, 2005 22:49 UTC (Tue) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Of course I would notice. For one, the fans would start spinning (on iBooks that's almost as rare as a solar eclipse) and drive you mad. Then, the thing would get hotter and hotter, up to the point where it stops being a *laptop*. Finally, your battery would last about half the time -- all for a marginal gain in speed. Suspend and sleep would probably stop working too, although that can be solved given some time.The performance gain would completely be offset in Mac OS X by the emulation layer whenever I had to use a legacy application compiled for PowerPC. It's true that when running e.g. Debian the only noticeable effect for software would be less problems, partly because of stronger vendor support in i386 than in PowerPC and partly due to a bigger number of hackers.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 7, 2005 23:01 UTC (Tue) by joedrew (subscriber, #828) [Link] I've got an iBook too.
I think you wildly underestimate a) Apple's commitment to the full experience - there's no way they're going to drop a processor into a laptop that'll make it behave as bad Windows laptops do - and b) Intel's quality. Apple isn't going to put desktop CPUs into their laptops, they'll put the Pentium M, which from all accounts is a pretty damned good chip, and getting better all the time.
Yes, the PowerPC emulation will mean a hit in performance, but if, as you say, you run mainly Linux, it won't matter: Debian is native on x86 and PowerPC.
Basically, I can't fathom how people think the prescence of an Intel chip will mean Apple suddenly forgets everything they've dedicated the business to the past 20 years.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 8, 2005 0:06 UTC (Wed) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] Intel have publicly said that the move to 65 nm will solve all of their current leakage problems (which, by the way, are similar to those that have plagued IBM in the G5 at their current 90 nm process). Jobs has said that Intel chips will be better in a year: as reported by The Register, that"By mid-2006, Intel will have about five times the performance per watt of IBM".So all we have are promises and roadmaps, and not very credible ones. But if Intel comes up with a Pentium M that runs as cool as a G4 and with twice the power, then of course it will be welcome. Then again, with a variety of suppliers, who cares about Apple. Basically, I can't fathom how people think the prescence of an Intel chip will mean Apple suddenly forgets everything they've dedicated the business to the past 20 years.Many people think that Apple's biggest asset is their operating system. But since I switched to GNU/Linux, I think it's a liability. What I like is their hardware, and it's getting better all the time: I love my mac mini. If Apple gets to do an Intel-inside mac mini, then more power to them. It's only that their new friend Intel may still beat them to it.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 9, 2005 3:06 UTC (Thu) by clump (subscriber, #27801) [Link] man_ls, my fellow Linux on Mac brother. I whole-heartedly agree that Mac *hardware* is what's relevant. I do feel that PPC or not, if Apple can show the same care with x86/x86-64 hardware that they show PPC you and I have nothing to worry about.A little off-topic, I can't see any reason Mac on x86 could hurt Linux. We run on PPC and we run on x86. One less platform that another OS doesn't run on matters none to us, except possibly in terms of cheap hardware availability. The only casualty I can see would be consumer-targetted PPC. I bought a Mac Mini *only* to run Linux. My first night of having the thing I put Debian on it. I think people need to realize Apple is more than OSX.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 9, 2005 13:32 UTC (Thu) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link] I've decided I will eventually get a Mac Mini to replace my desktop, but only because it is a PowerPC system. I have no interest in buying a cheap Apple x86 box when there are a million other ones on the market.
If anything, this will benefit Linux users because they'll be less tempted to run OS X on Apple kit as a consequence of this announcement. Overall, I expect it will increase sales and be beneficial to the company - but they'll lose a few percent of customers who used to be die hard fans.
That said, deep down, I somehow want this to fail and for Steve to exit stage left again - it won't happen, but it's just so hard to understand how he can get away with such a radical change yet again.
Jon.
Lower power consumption Posted Jun 9, 2005 13:50 UTC (Thu) by man_ls (subscriber, #15091) [Link] A little off-topic, I can't see any reason Mac on x86 could hurt Linux.Probably the most on-topic comment in the whole thread :) I would say you are right, for Linux as an operating system. Some distribution may suffer (like YDL), but Linux can take on Mac OS X at any time. Still, it's a pity that we move a step closer to processor monoculture. In the end, the worst architecture wins all; right when the underlying processor is becoming more and more irrelevant thanks to free software. Indirectly, this hurts Linux.
Pentium M does well... Posted Jun 8, 2005 0:54 UTC (Wed) by leonbrooks (guest, #1494) [Link] ...mostly 'coz it's a P3 at heart, not a P4.However, AMD are dancing some pretty fancy steps these days as well. Besides, if Apple built some of their boxes with AMDs, particularly multi-CPU servers since HyperTransport makes that so easy, it would help to keep Intel in line.
Pentium M does well... Posted Jun 8, 2005 3:52 UTC (Wed) by bojan (subscriber, #14302) [Link] Absolutely. In fact, according to Tom's hardware, P4 is one of the most power hungry monstrosities ever created. Especially when you "step on it". So, this "5 times more performance per watt than PPC" thing surely must be some new thing, not P4.
The only advantage P4 has over other chips is marketing. Your average mums and dads are more likely to buy something that is "3 GHz" than something that's _only_ "2 GHz". That's why Intel crippled the chip in order to achieve high clock rates.
There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 7, 2005 23:34 UTC (Tue) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link] On Jun 7, 2005 21:01 UTC (Tue) HoserHead spaketh thusly:
>> I only own a Powerbook to run Linux and now that they have stated that they want to produce cheap white box trash
> Whoa! What makes you think they want to produce cheap white box trash?
They've decided to switch to using Pentium 4s - aka "processors for whitebox PCs" - I dislike the whole Netburst (and later) architecture and don't want a laptop based on a regular Pentium. Maybe if Intel were making something different, I'd understand, but as it is, Apple want to be a Dell.
> If Apple switched the Motorola PowerPC currently in your laptop with an
Yup. I bought a Powerbook to do a microkernel project before I graudated from college. I specifically want PowerPC and I spend large amounts of time hacking on ppc assembly, so really it's more useful to me to have my Debian running Apple Powerbook than a cheap whitebox POS. I reserve the right to be proven wrong by Apple not doing a Sony, but we'll see.
> An Apple is an Apple, regardless of the processor at its heart.
Not in my (Power)book.
Jon.
There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 8, 2005 22:46 UTC (Wed) by job (subscriber, #670) [Link] Good laptop makers? IBM, which has stated that the Thinkpad line of products will continue under Lenovo. We can just hope that they continue to stick to good quality.
I had the opportuniy recently to choose between IBM X40 and Apple Powerbook and because the wifi chip on the Apple was unsupported in Linux the IBM was chosen. So far the experience has been very good with perfect Linux support.
There goes the only good reason to use a Macintosh. Posted Jun 8, 2005 23:12 UTC (Wed) by jcm (subscriber, #18262) [Link] My issue is more of not wanting an Intel (and by that I mean x86 for all intents and purposes) processor in my laptop - where do I go for a non-Intel laptop in future? There's Tadpole (which I've seriously considered - though I'm not so happy to hand over so much for their current line of kit) but - as we have established in this thread - there are few good alternatives left.
The hope is that Intel have something good up their sleve - like a superPowerPC (and Steve was just having a laugh or was replaced by aliens for his keynote - about as likely as one of us successfully mail ordering Bush some tasty after dinner pretzels to choke on) - but I have a nasty feeling that the cold face of reality is that Apple are going to use plain old (badly designed) x86.
I genuinely think that PowerPC is a better fundamental design. It's clean (64bit clean but also just plain clean as a design), the assembly is easy to learn in a day (and it actually makes some sense compared to Intel's) and it was clearly designed with scalability in mind from the get go.
Jon.
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