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Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet)
ZDNet
covers the fallout from a recent Yankee Group survey that
compared Microsoft Windows Server 2003 to Linux.
"Laura DiDio, an analyst at the Yankee Group who has been at the receiving end of much of the criticism from Linux advocates, claimed the radical elements of the community could damage the reputation of open source software.
"There's an extremist fringe of Linux loonies who hang out on forums and are disrespectful and threatening because you disagree with them," DiDio told ZDNet UK on Wednesday. "That can hurt the Linux community.""
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Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 20:41 UTC (Thu) by tcm (guest, #29122) [Link]
But the journalistic integrity of any publication is defeated when articles, such as those recently appearing in the Salt Lake Tribune, include quotes from analysts who are completely misleading and just plain wrong about nearly every fact and interpretation. When the information provided by analysts like Rob Enderle and Laura DiDio werent incorrect, their statements represented speculation more fitting to a daytime soap opera than to the business section of a newspaper.
Brent Noorda,
quoted on Groklaw.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 20:42 UTC (Thu) by doctornull (guest, #11) [Link] I consider radical Penguinistas the balance for paid Microsoft shills -- be they reporters, "benchmark" agencies, or forum dwellers.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 20:48 UTC (Thu) by emkey (guest, #144) [Link] I see it as just the opposite. Extremists are seldom if ever good for a cause. This is most especially true when the extremists start getting to large a percentage of the press coverage.
Microsofts games are extremely transparent. It doesn't take shrill voices and outrage to counter them. Heck, a reasonably bright and mature twelve year old would likely have little trouble seeing through the Microsoft smoke screen.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:16 UTC (Thu) by doctornull (guest, #11) [Link] Without that first "extremist" who's willing to create the darn cause in the first place, you won't have any cause to hide safely in the middle of.
A community of people who are willing to keep reporters honest -- loudly and in public -- is a service to truth, justice and the American way, even if they could stand a few lessons in grammar, capitalization and politesse.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 9:53 UTC (Fri) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] > truth, justice and the American way
"select two" [first] :-(
JM EUR.02, sorry...
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet)
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 13:46 UTC (Fri) by gowen (guest, #23914) [Link] Did you serve in the Armed Forces, or are you employed treating sick animals?
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 11, 2005 11:39 UTC (Mon) by cpm (guest, #3554) [Link] I served in armed forces, but I'd rather be dealing with sick animals.
-A vet who wishes he was a vet.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:05 UTC (Thu) by jstAusr (guest, #27224) [Link] > reasonably bright and mature twelve year old would likely have little trouble seeing through the Microsoft smoke screen.<
Since most people that purchase those products are > 12, either there is a problem in the logic or the implication is that the purchasers aren't as bright and mature as a twelve year old. Either way reality seems to be missing.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 9:56 UTC (Fri) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] Y'know, but at least I remember myself far more bright at 16 than now at three weeks to 26...
Children in reality *are* who won't lie for money. When they will, they're not children anymore -- they're "socialized".
Oh well, it's offtopic anyways but somewhat connected to whom would honestly benefit what, no?
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 15, 2005 12:16 UTC (Fri) by jbailey (subscriber, #16890) [Link] The nice thing about extremists is that it allows me to be a moderate. They truly do work that, in many ways, we should thank them for. So much discussion could never have happened without them.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 20:46 UTC (Thu) by ccchips (subscriber, #3222) [Link] There are extremists in every aspect of software, from development to sales, and some of them (even in the Microsoft camp) will do anything to discredit people who support a competitor. I have even seen consultants deliberately bend managers' ears regarding the competency of regular staff, in order to get more work for themselves.
The difference between the two camps is this:
The Linux zealots are public about their behavior, the "proprietary software" zealots are not.
Frankly, I'd rather have people make a lot of noise and smoke over the Yankee Group's survey in public, than have a proprietary-software zealot consultant ruin someone's career in secret. At least the Yankee Group can defend itself in public. The family breadwinner isn't likely to get that chance.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 6:29 UTC (Fri) by nchip (guest, #13292) [Link] "The other side does it too" is hardly a valid reason. Nazi/TerroristCorollary left as an user exercise. http://www.datasync.com/~rogerspl/Advocacy-HOWTO-6.html Extremism/Advocacy in forums/newsgroups rarely changes "the other side's" mind, while well documented, easy to use high quality free software will eventually. There is a lot of tasks in Free Software scene that do not need hardcore programming skills.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 11:02 UTC (Fri) by penguinroar (guest, #14460) [Link] Nazis?
This thread is dead already?
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 14:14 UTC (Fri) by ccchips (subscriber, #3222) [Link] I think anyone who does this should be banned from the Internet! Either that, or someone should come up with an "anti-Nazi" ploy that works to keep a thread alive, and then the perp should *still* be banned from the Internet!
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 9, 2005 14:55 UTC (Sat) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link] nyone who does this should be banned from the Internet!Well, as the extremists was the topic here .... :D
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 20:52 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link] Although I disagree with the extent of the problem, I actually find myself in agreement with Didio in a qualitative sense.
Flaming people doesn't do much good and more times than not, hurts the cause.
And childish terms like "Didiot" (which I have seen used) and M$ do make us look like wackos to 'regular folks'.
For the good of Open Source software, it would be best if people just stopped doing these things.
It's just too bad that won't happen, people being people and all.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:06 UTC (Thu) by petegn (guest, #847) [Link] >Flaming people doesn't do much good and more times than not, hurts the cause.<
No but it is GOOD fun (nomex underwear on 3 Layer nomex overalls on and fastened)
Is this whole thing not just down to the fact the we (the Linux communitity) must be hurting M$ Corp quite badley, I wonder just which arm of M$ Corp this Yankee Group belongs too . theres the best way to discredit the so called report show it is just yet another piece of M$ Corp FUD as flawed as ever
I think M$ Corp is a very good description of the company after all that IS all they are an money farm plain and simple and the more they can fluf people up the more they make , Keep hammering i say good and hard .
Pete .
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:25 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link] Yes, it is good fun. People enjoy it.
And to that end, I've been thinking about writing a patch to Thunderbird to cause the "Send" button to go through all the motions of sending the email without actually doing it. That's the easy part. Phase II is the harder part. In Phase II, sometimes, but not always, after a random period, Thunderbird will generate an email in reply which looks as though it came from the flamed person. It would quote your original mail and flame you back in a believable way, at which point you could "Reply".
If I ever get that done, I will consider my (rather considerable) debt to the FLOSS community more or less paid back.
P.S. Phase III, as envisioned, would involve virtual reality, and allow you to actually get on a plane and travel to where the recipient lives for a face to face confrontation. I fear that phase III is quite beyond my capabilities, however.
Phase III Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:28 UTC (Thu) by doctornull (guest, #11) [Link] I'm sure SOMEONE has done a Redmond map for Quake3. ;)
Phase III Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:38 UTC (Thu) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link] Thanks for the hearty midafternoon chuckle... :)
Phase III Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:13 UTC (Thu) by sbergman27 (subscriber, #10767) [Link] Good idea! Thanks!
Hey, does anyone else think that Daemia looks a bit like Maureen O'Gara?
Phase III Posted Apr 9, 2005 15:03 UTC (Sat) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link] I'm sure SOMEONE has done a Redmond map for Quake3. ;)I would love to have it!! Any ideas where can I get it? OK, it's a rough topic and a real black humour and If I were an american, I would be stamped as "unpatriotic" and "anti american", but I wonder if Bin Laden has a Quake3 map of New York and Washington... :>
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 10:58 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link] I fear that phase III is quite beyond my capabilities, however. Never fear, the Joint Sucking Flamebird is near.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 14:55 UTC (Fri) by ccchips (subscriber, #3222) [Link] I paid a *lot* of $$ for a pair of m$ products---XP and Office 2003---because one of my loved ones insists on having them. The Access program (which would have cost over $300 on its own,) doesn't properly support my printer, and from what I can tell, Microsoft has no intention of fixing this because the (extremely well-built, highly-reliable) printer is "too old."
Now, it's well known that Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. What is the implication there?
I don't believe there is anything childish about the m$ snipe. Microsoft is in fact lucky they are still in business as usual, thanks to a government which has a leader who may, or may not, have been elected.
I think some of the other slurs, various "micro-s***" slurs and such, are not helpful at all, but then again, neither is it helpful for the richest man in the world to leave me holding the bag.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 9, 2005 22:08 UTC (Sat) by sidboyce (guest, #10891) [Link] But DiDio and the MS crowd call Linux enthusiasts all sorts of names with impunity. Not supporting their flamers, but they set off the fireworks then complain bitterly when they get flamed. When they supply respected journals with lies and distortions, Newton's third law kicks in. Their one aim is to cause damage and they expect to do it unchallenged. The tactic I have observed over the years, they flame Linux, they get flamed in return, then they have the last say, trying to show that they are the damaged party.
"Buy two, get one free" plan. Posted Apr 7, 2005 21:45 UTC (Thu) by dmarti (subscriber, #11625) [Link] Oh, come on. "Yankee Group paid entirely for the survey."That may be true of this survey, but do a quick Google search and you get a list of links to reports. One Yankee Group report, the latest, is "non-sponsored". Two are, well, not "non-sponsored". When an analyst talks about a "non-commissioned" or "non-sponsored" report, you have to ask about other business relations between the vendor and the analyst firm. Otherwise, vendors can just pay for other reports to encourage the analysts to give them the "non-commissioned" or "non-sponsored" reports.
Lovely Laura Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:03 UTC (Thu) by StevenCole (guest, #3068) [Link] Shall I compare thee to a summer's day? ...In Austin, Texas. It's not the heat, it's the Tumidity!.Here is our Fairest in the Land Analyst. (Requires Microsoft Media Player or equivalent, sorry)
Lovely Laura Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:25 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (subscriber, #27559) [Link] >> Here is our Fairest in the Land Analyst
yikes
Lovely Laura Posted Apr 7, 2005 23:05 UTC (Thu) by Seegras (subscriber, #20463) [Link] > Here is our Fairest in the Land Analyst.
Thank you. Now I really comprehend. You cannot be more bought by Microsoft than that. I'd call her a total and absolute Microsoft-extremist.
Lovely Laura Posted Apr 8, 2005 6:52 UTC (Fri) by a_hippie (guest, #34) [Link] Yikes the analyst bytes!
I just watched the infomercial--never even thought about what this person looked like before this evening, yet now I know what one M$ analyst looks like behind a desk while busy doing voice-over FUD...
With the money this person sucks out of M$, I'd say that she needs to mute the ole pie-hole and just get back to the rut between office and bank.
extremists my eye! :)
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:21 UTC (Thu) by brianomahoney (subscriber, #6206) [Link] I am sorry, I believe that Ms Didio and the Yankee Group deserve allthe odium and disrespect they get, they repeatedly lie and shill for M$, and do not willingly disclose the fact that M$ pays for most of what they do, directly or indirectly.
Having worked in as senior technical role in the industry since 1962,
They are often less critical that the 12 year olds quoted above.
As for the jokes and outrage, it is mild, and goes with the teritory.
At least Linux Extremists and Radicals are not convicted Corporate Criminals on two continents.
This may yet happen if M$ continues to defy the EU court.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 2:18 UTC (Fri) by dcreemer (guest, #5103) [Link] I'll add my $0.02. I haven't been in the industry since 1962 (haven't even been on the earth that long...), but I have had many, many dealing with analysts. I've been a customer, influencer, schmoozer, reader, and general observer of their products. Since we're all painting with a broad brush: in general I am not impressed at all. The most use I've found is with decent numerical data (i.e. things like sell-through reports).
When it comes to things like TCO reports and subjective recommendations, I have seldom read anything that impressed me in areas that I have a deep knowledge. Most technology writers are the same (again with one or two exceptions). Marketing people view analysts and most tech reporters as message amplifiers. Companies pretend to listen to them so that the analysts will write nicely about their products. A company will hold "analyst conferences," buy nice food, set up linen tablecloths, and pretend to listen intently to what the analysts have to say. In exchange for that and "buying" the analyst service, you get some good mentions in their reports.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:22 UTC (Thu) by b7j0c (subscriber, #27559) [Link] >> There's an extremist fringe of Linux loonies who hang out on forums
WOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAWEWEWEWEWE!!!
david koresh and charlie manson, both debian users!
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 11:07 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link] Aren't you afraid they're going to quote you out of context?
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 13:18 UTC (Fri) by flewellyn (subscriber, #5047) [Link] I would hope they did; it would make them look like utter idiots, what with Manson being in prison and Koresh being dead and all...
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 7, 2005 22:43 UTC (Thu) by Seegras (subscriber, #20463) [Link] The statement might be true BUT:
If one of the open-source-scene (so to say) says this, that's quite okay. It's a kind of self-critique.
But if a Microsoft-zealot like DiDio says something like this, it somehow leaves a bad taste in your mouth. It's actually an attack, disguised as helpful advice.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 10:51 UTC (Fri) by penguinroar (guest, #14460) [Link] The radical elements is a part of the OSS eco-system. The diversity and mix of ideas, beliefs and personalitys makes it a moving target. You cant say that OSS people is this or that way because we are so fragmented.
I think the main reason that OSS people are infuriated is that Yankee Group is outright lying right in their face. There is no question about their loyalty towards Microsoft and people needs to be educated about how the analyst market works.
Expressing anger when you have a reason is just natural.
Yankee Group slams 'Linux extremists' (ZDNet) Posted Apr 8, 2005 14:41 UTC (Fri) by epeeist (guest, #1743) [Link] Making Ad Hominem attacks on people, such as calling them "D'idiot" doesn't advance the argument, is inflammatory and counter-productive. It also generates lots of page clicks and room for followup articles, which is why publishers like ZDNet really prefer them to reasoned arguments.
After all a reasoned argument that total debunks a report doesn't leave room for tantrums and Tu Quoque ripostes and is therefore of no interest to people who like a flamefest.
But after all "Presentation is everything, content is mere ephemera."
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