Why didn't Jikes take off? [LWN.net]

Why didn't Jikes take off?

Posted Mar 10, 2005 16:18 UTC (Thu) by jwharmanny (guest, #971)
In reply to: Why didn't Jikes take off? by landley
Parent article: IBM's latest gift to the community

> Most open source developers DON'T want Java.

There is a very active open source Java community. Google for 'Jakarta'.

> But as time went on with at best tepid Java support for Linux
> (including closed-source Blackdown getting screwed over by Sun when Sun
> finally did decide to break down and produce its own Linux JDK)... Well,
> everybody lost interest.

First, you blame Sun for not supporting Linux. Then, you blame them for screwing Blackdown
because they _did_ start supporting Linux. Whatever they do, it's always their fault, it seems.

> Multi-platform support is actually easier with open source than
> with Java.

Multi-platform support has nothing to do with using open source. Ask the Ximian Evolution
developers if you need information about porting a large open source program to another
operating system. If Evo and it's libraries would have been written in Mono, which does bytecode
compilation just like Java, porting would probably have been much easier.

> As for "gee whiz ain't bytecode great", actually it slows stuff down

Good virtual machines (like the JVM and Mono) can actually optimize the bytecode at run-time, to
make it run faster. That's very hard to do without bytecode. Search for 'JIT compilation'. Besides
that, bytecode provides a lot more nice functionality, like real multi-platform capabilities, and
reflection/introspection.

> java is only a baby step away from C++ (yeah they have garbage collection,
> but still no dynamic typing.

I tend to like dynamic typing. It prevents a lot of stupid bugs beforehand.

> Yeah, interfaces are better than C++ templates, but you can't do dynamic
> typing at compile time any more than you can do garbage
> collection at compile time.

What does that mean, 'garbage collection at compile time'? Garbage collection means I don't have
to care about memory leaks _at runtime_. I don't mind if the compiler isn't garbage collected.

> Large corporations still love Java because it allows them to be
> cross-platform in a closed source way and because they committed resources
> to it 5 years ago during all the hype and they never throw out anything
> that works (which is why they have so much old cobol code still deployed).

So Java is bad, because it is used by corporations that are still running Cobol code? I don't think
this is a very compelling argument...

> But open source developers have ignored Java en masse ever since Sun was
> ignoring Linux in 98, 99 and 2000. Even the open source reimplementations
> of Java (kaffe, Japhar, gcj with gnu classpath) have mostly stagnated for
> lack of interest. Jikes is just part of the crowd.

I don't follow kaffe or Japhar development. I do know that GCJ and Gnu Classpath are under very
active development.

> IBM did a good JDK in Eclipse, because IBM uses Java internally the same
> way it still uses Cobol.

Where did you get that information?

> I'm told that if you want to do Java on Linux, use Eclipse. Can't say I've tried it myself...

That explains a lot.

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Sun doesn't like Free Software

Posted Mar 11, 2005 17:45 UTC (Fri) by HalfMoon (guest, #3211) [Link]

First, you blame Sun for not supporting Linux. Then, you blame them for screwing Blackdown because they _did_ start supporting Linux. Whatever they do, it's always their fault, it seems.

You seem to be under a strange delusion that supporting Linux necessarily meant screwing Blackdown. Why is that?

The point here about Sun is that they have a problem with supporting community efforts that they don't control. A few examples that come quickly to mind:

The way they claimed/stole credit for the Blackdown work.
The whole Java "Community" Process (JCP) is another ... they've actively worked to suppress efforts that got started outside of that, to the extent of even denying they existed as part of the "will starting a new Java Spec Request cause problems".
Plus, the rules of JCP more or less preclude active participation following normal Free Software rules ... you can't disclose anything until it's too late to support effective counterproposals.
Let's not forget the whole "we'll submit Java to a Standards Organization", "erm, sorry, no we won't" bit.
... plenty more examples too.

It's at least disingenuous to pretend that Sun doesn't have major issues with the notion of not always being in the driver's seat. Even -- especially! -- when it's not the one doing the innovating.