PalmOS to be built on Linux [LWN.net]

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 16:03 UTC (Wed) by mdekkers (guest, #85) [Link]

That's a stupid comment. What do you mean, too little? They will invest in the Open Source community - that is progress. There other option is to *not* do anything, simply release PalmOS as a software layer on top of Linux, and leave it at that.

What do you mean, too late? too late for what? It is never too late to try and make friends.

Sheesh, this kind of attitude really gets to me - since when does Palmsource owe *you* anything?

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 16:18 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

It's not clear to me from the PDF that they are investing in open source.
They want to use Linux to help their business, and the bulk of their
libraries that live on top of Linux will still be proprietary. Depending
on how their customers bundle that on a PDA, it could be easy or major
hackery to be able to run regular Linux embedded programs alongside.
Investing in open source doesn't sound like the correct description of
this plan.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 16:52 UTC (Wed) by mdekkers (guest, #85) [Link]

the PDF states "While we're not open sourcing all of Palm OS, we do expect to open source some of our code, and will actively seek to invest in the open source community through code contributions and other means."

rtfp :-) (read the fine pdf)

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 17:05 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

I stand by what I said and wrote ("the bulk of their libraries will still be proprietary"). They are up front about their plan to remain a proprietary software API and its far from clear that they will contribute anything of value to open source or Linux. They have a vested interest in making sure that developers write to their API and not an open source API - that is their business model. The fact that they announce a plan to utilize Linux as a tool to help them isn't a cause for sorrow, but it's not a cause for rejoicing either. This looks very different from Sharp's previous effort to actually make Linux the development platform for their PDA.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 18:20 UTC (Wed) by allesfresser (subscriber, #216) [Link]

Here's their "What we're doing" section from the PDF:

"We intend to offer future versions of Palm OS Cobalt as a software layer on top of Linux (specifically, on the Linux kernel plus selected Linux services appropriate to mobile devices). The Palm OS software layer will include our well-known UI as well as a set of middleware and applications that encompass the best of Palm OS. We intend that properly written Palm OS 68k applications will run unchanged on Palm OS for Linux, and that Palm OS® Cobalt native applications using the Palm OS Protein APIs will port with a simple recompile. In addition, Palm OS for Linux will be able to run many third party Linux applications and services (GUI applications will need to use the Palm OS APIs)."

It sounds about the same as running VMWare in full-screen mode, if you ask me--a proprietary application running on top of a free kernel and utilities. It sure would make writing Palm applications a lot easier than it is now (which I suspect is a big part of their intentions...)

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 9, 2004 2:56 UTC (Thu) by bbell9 (guest, #26549) [Link]

> It sounds about the same as running VMWare in full-screen mode, if you
> ask me--a proprietary application running on top of a free kernel and
>utilities.

This idea is not so much like VMWARE, but more like their own distribution based on Linux, using their own GUI product (rather than XFree/X.org) and suppying their own desktop environment with Apps (like KDE/Gnome).

Sounds like the approach Apple took with their OS X, installing their own interface over BSD (Darwin).

>It sure would make writing Palm applications a lot easier than it is now
>(which I suspect is a big part of their intentions...)

Should allow easier porting of Linux apps (for graphical things, someone will have to make some X11 translation libraries though). Perhaps PalmSource has thought of that already.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 9, 2004 0:59 UTC (Thu) by mdekkers (guest, #85) [Link]

And I stand by what I wrote - I think that Palmsource are doing a good thing - true they are not going 100% open source, but it is a step in the right direction, one they did not have to take. To rebuff them with saying "oh, well, we don't need this" or "all dying companies look to open source to save them" is simply a silly attitude to take, and will make other companies think twice about making such moves. This is the one thing that grates me about some elements in the community - this whole dammned if you do / dammned if you don't attitutde. They clearly state in the PDF that applications will be able to run natively in linux as well as on their API, so they seem to be pretty open about the whole thing.

Some open source code is better then none open source code, and some collaboration is better then none collaboration. Also, have a look at what they will do for Eclipse penetration.

Or are you just upset that they are *gasp* trying to make living out of engineering software and platforms?

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 9, 2004 2:31 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

>And I stand by what I wrote - I think that Palmsource are doing a good
>thing - true they are not going 100% open source, but it is a step in the
>right direction, one they did not have to take. To rebuff them with
>saying "oh, well, we don't need this" or "all dying companies look to
>open source to save them" is simply a silly attitude to take, and will
>make other companies think twice about making such moves.

I can't follow the fictitious conversation you are participating in.
Nobody in this thread "rebuffed" Palm - in the first place, because they
are not asking the Open Source community for anything except customers.
They are simply utilizing Linux as a tool to help their business and it
should be completely understood that they will continue to be a
competitior to Linux at the application level. If people port their
apps to an open source API instead pf the Palm API then their business
ends, full stop. Also, nobody in this thread is criticizing them for
selling a proprietary product, but I dispute your emphasis of the idea
that they "investing" in open source. They are rather just making a
business decision about how to sell more of their proprietary product, and
if there is a demand for a slightly more expensive product that allows
PalmOS Apps to run on top of a Microsoft OS then I can't see why they
wouldn't create that product option as well (assuming it is technically
feasible and they didn't believe MS would intentionally break it in
subsequent releases).

>They clearly state in the PDF that applications will be able to run
>natively in linux as well as on their API, so they seem to be pretty open
>about the whole thing.

They stated that they would expose some APIs "under" the PalmOS.
Let's wait and see how easy they make it to create a GUI app
that doesn't need PalmOS.

>Or are you just upset that they are *gasp* trying to make living out of
>engineering software and platforms?

I don't care how they make a living or whether Linux helps them do that,
but I am partial to accurate analyses of what they are doing (and also
what I wrote above). I agree with the other poster that the people who
should mainy be excited by that press release are people developing code
for PalmOS (open source or proprietary).

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 17:12 UTC (Wed) by jmorris42 (subscriber, #2203) [Link]

> What do you mean, too little?

While not wanting to speak for the original poster, I'd say too little, too late to save the company. Palm ruled the handheld world, then gave it all away in an insane quest to be just as bad as WinCE.

They used to make wonderful little devices, optimized to the sort of jobs real people need a handheld device for and able to operate long periods on a pair of AAA batteries. Actually, I'm not sure how Linux can help them get back to that.

Proprietary software houses only seem to turn to open source when they are months away from a listing on f---edcompany.com. And it wasn't closed source that did Palm in, it was forgetting their core competency and customer base and deciding that the way to beat Microsoft wasn't to keep doing what had allowed them to create an industry, but to discontinue those product lines and try to make bigger more bloated geek toys than Microsoft and HP. Dumb. Sorry, a TFT color screen just forces a lithium battery and a higher unit price, it doesn't help me look up an address or do data entry. Actually, for a propretiary house Palm used to be very open with their code, you could download source for all of the built in apps for example and see how real apps worked and modify them.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 18:16 UTC (Wed) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

I think your interpretation is correct. As far as the business analysis goes, didn't they mostly
lose share to WinCE (which was more heavyweight and GUI like)? Perhaps the business
criticism would be that they got a huge first mover advantage that wasn't sustainable and
being a public company led them to be too grandiose in defending un undefendable advantage.
So maybe trying to shift costs of Core OS development and licensing to free Linux is a suitable
business rememdy.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 9, 2004 23:27 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

There are users who want device to work forever - for them PDA who needs to be recharced more often then once per week is not PDA. There are users who like ultracapable gadgets - even if two hours of life is max. Palm lost first type of customers and enver gained attention of second type.

I do not see how Linux will exactly help them: it will not help with slow yet long-lasting tools and it will not help with ultracapable gadgets as well unless it's easy to port normal application to that device - and Qtopia or GPE are much better there.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 9, 2004 23:49 UTC (Thu) by josh_stern (guest, #4868) [Link]

It may help save development costs by them not needing to develop as much
in the way of core OS or drivers. That's what I meant, anyway.

PalmOS to be built on Linux

Posted Dec 8, 2004 20:10 UTC (Wed) by vondo (guest, #256) [Link]

Sorry, a TFT color screen just forces a lithium battery and a higher unit price, it doesn't help me look up an address or do data entry.

I used to think this way too, but I now own a Clie with the Lithium battery and TFT display and it is marvelous. It's still about the same size (always my big beef with PalmPCs) and just as easy to use as my Palm III/IIIx/M-105, but much nicer. And at $150, not a bad bargain (I paid at least $100 for my m-105 and that was the cheapest one I owned).

Lithium batteries bad

Posted Dec 17, 2004 18:13 UTC (Fri) by Max.Hyre (subscriber, #1054) [Link]

[A] TFT color screen just forces a lithium battery....

That's why I still treasure my Handspring Visor. (Just wish I didn't break so many screens.) I want to be able to carry or buy a couple of AAAs, and know I've got plenty of time left, even if I'm on a long trip (car, plane, whatever) w/o access to a power supply. I do like rechargeables, and bought a few from Radio Shack, but when I'm away and they run low, just toss in some alkalines.

Never buy a PDA that's tethered to a charger.