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Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions)
LinuxQuestions.org interviews some
unnamed NVIDIA engineers. "Demand has continues to grow for high
quality Linux drivers with each new generation of GPUs. Around 15-20% of
our workstation users ship with Linux. Some industries in the workstation
business are 100% Linux. We have users using our Linux OpenGL drivers for
things like designing automobiles, operating medical equipment,
broadcasting television, and creating the latest special effects in
movies."
(Log in to post comments)
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 2:00 UTC (Thu) by Thalience (subscriber, #4217) [Link] Linked interview was pretty boring. They asked the "Why don't you open your driver?" question, but not the (far more interesting) "Why can't we get the docs to write an open driver?" question.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 2:21 UTC (Thu) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link] They'd have given the same BS answer about Intellectual Property, bla, bla, bla...
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 5:41 UTC (Thu) by XERC (guest, #14626) [Link] Well, OK, an open hardware graphicscard is a huge endeavour, financially not feasible and expensive for an average individual, but it's not impossible for people, who really want it. Here's one try: Manticore
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 12:22 UTC (Thu) by kune (subscriber, #172) [Link] LQ) Is there anything the Linux community could do to help enable the release of an Open Source driver?NV) Not at this time.
I think, that answers it pretty well.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 12:44 UTC (Thu) by clugstj (subscriber, #4020) [Link] No, that's the answer to the first question (in their mind). I'm not sure they understand (or believe) that with the specs for the cards, the community would write an excellent driver and they wouldn't have to do anything.
Free 3D drivers Posted Nov 11, 2004 13:22 UTC (Thu) by mjr (subscriber, #6979) [Link] To be realistic, not an excellent driver, at least not very quickly. 3D drivers are complex beasts with complex optimizations. But a working driver, sure. That's why I bought a Radeon 9250 for my new box - it might not have great performance especially with the free driver, but it is there.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 13:25 UTC (Thu) by libra (guest, #2515) [Link] Maybe some engineers are trying to protect their jobs there...It would be interesting to have the community scrutinize the specs and design of some old generation card and see if better driver and better design could have been done. If it can be shown to be so in some substantial way it may prove me right.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 17:28 UTC (Thu) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link] It might be the case but it would not be a fair comparison:With insight, you can always do a better job.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 14:33 UTC (Thu) by linuxquestions (guest, #9302) [Link] This question has been sent as a follow-up. I will post the response as soon as I get it.
Content free Posted Nov 11, 2004 21:13 UTC (Thu) by uriel (guest, #20754) [Link] Thanks, now it would be nice to ask them about the pathetic support they have for NForce audio. And why wont they release docs to their NICs and force people to reverse engineer their buggy drivers.
Content free Posted Nov 12, 2004 19:11 UTC (Fri) by linuxquestions (guest, #9302) [Link] The followup answers have been posted.
--jeremy
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 11, 2004 20:15 UTC (Thu) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] It seems bizarre, that the one company that produces great video cardsand busts their ass to provide full support for linux and the absolute best linux drivers available, is getting all this grief from ungrateful customers. Sure, it would be great if the nvidia drivers were open source, but the reality is that they have IP obligations, and it is what it is. As long as they are providing this level of quality I really can't fault them at all, and they have all of my video card business for the forseeable future. Thanks nvidia!
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 11, 2004 21:11 UTC (Thu) by uriel (guest, #20754) [Link] You obviously don't get it.
I bet you are not running Linux on PPC? The world is bigger than x86(-64).
Or running one of the many unsupported BSD variants.
As others have pointed out, the question is not about they opensourcing their drivers(that anyway are useless for many), but about they releasing the necessary docs so people can write the drivers they need to use the hardware they paid for.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 0:34 UTC (Fri) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] You obviously don't get it.Sorry you feel that way. You're right, I'm running Linux/x86, Linux/PPC is not an option, due to high hardware cost and poor 3D driver support. So, let me qualify my statements with the fact that I am referring specifically to Linux on x86, period. If PPC were ever to get some decent driver support (IBM could help make that happen) I'd definitely be looking more seriously at Linux/PPC... Now, if your complaint against nvidia is that they don't support Linux on anything but x86, that's a whole different question, and to my mind totally separate from the question of open source drivers. If nvidia were to provide drivers for Linux/PPC of the same quality as their x86 drivers, that would be good enough for me, open source or not. As I've said, full technical specs, allowing open source drivers to be written, would be great, but that's not the hill I'm going to die on.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 8:31 UTC (Fri) by piman (subscriber, #8957) [Link] So you don't use Linux/PPC because it has poor 3D support, and you don't care about its poor 3D support because you don't use it?
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 16:37 UTC (Fri) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] Yes, I do care about solid 3D support, to the point that I won't even consider running PPC due to the lack of such support. Fortunately the Linux x86 platform offers good performance at a low cost.
When it comes to PPC vs x86 as a Linux platform, it's a no-brainer - think about it, you take a $500 x86 box w/ nvidia video, install SuSE 9.2 pro, and you've got a killer machine that does OpenGL and has great multimedia and gaming performance, and easily outperforms a $2000 mac.
It's hard to ignore such stark contrast...
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 9:02 UTC (Fri) by uriel (guest, #20754) [Link] You still don't get it, Linux supports _dozens_ of architectures, and there are dozens of Open Source operating systems that are not Linux. Anyone that runs either is locked out from using the hardware they paid for because NVidia wont release the needed documentation to _access_ their hardware.
The reason people runs Open Source operating systems is to not get locked (in or out), and not for religious reasons, but for purely and sound business reasons; using hardware which only has binary drivers is throwing all this advantages out the window.
I run the tech department of a small/medium size company; and I have been screwed over by both software and hardware companies that wouldn't want to tell me how their junk works, just so they could bait and switch on me; force me to "upgrade" to versions I didn't need, pay insane amounts of money for documentation to use the hardware I had paid for, etc.
The argument that that information would help their competition is bullshit, because we are not talking about the inner workings of the chip, only about the _interface_ to access it, and anyway their competition has more than enough resources to reverse engineer their binary drivers drivers, and I'm sure they already do.
Back in the dark ages network card manufacturers didn't release documentation for their NICs, this changed long ago, and this days only NVidia(and other really stupid companies that fortunately aren't very popular) refuses to release docs for their NICs.
It's about time graphic card manufacturers wake up and get out of the dark ages. Releasing the documentation benefits their customers, which directly benefits them, as making your customers happy is a good way to have them come back. And by customer here I'm not talking about an 31137 kid playing DooMIII at his mom basement, I'm talking about companies buying tons of hardware to get real work done.
[This is a copy of a post I made to the LinuxQuestion thread]
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 11:36 UTC (Fri) by hppnq (subscriber, #14462) [Link] You could save yourself the agony and just don't use nvidia hardware if you're not comfortable with the support, lack of documentation or the phase of the moon.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 12, 2004 16:36 UTC (Fri) by seyman (subscriber, #1172) [Link]
Actually, I recommend ATI cards when people ask me what video card to buy.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 14, 2004 17:56 UTC (Sun) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] > one of the many unsupported
Why the platforms that are claiming to be server ones at best should be supported better than they already are?
If the platform is lurking in its niche, it's their problem, not NVIDIA's or users'.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 14, 2004 18:38 UTC (Sun) by einstein (subscriber, #2052) [Link] I think I do understand their beef. Perhaps you'd like to call their PPC desktop a "server at best" (that sounds somewhat insulting BTW), but they might want to use it as a workstation, and not be limited by whether you, or nvidia management feels that it should only be a server.
Given the availability of specs with which to write drivers, there would be less of a barrier to doing what they want with their own computing hardware.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 18, 2004 22:08 UTC (Thu) by wookey (subscriber, #5501) [Link] Precisely - and it's not just PPC. The Iyonix ARM desktop machine comes with an Nvidia card. The lack of source or specifications makes them pretty much impossible to use in anything beyond VGA-compatibility mode under linux.
Just taking a utilitarian approach is not enough ('it's alright for me/most people'). The principle that hardware should come with the specs to use it is important, and anyone who understands that should do their best not to buy stuff that doesn't meet that requirement. You may not need it personally but rest assured that other people do.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 27, 2004 17:23 UTC (Sat) by gvy (guest, #11981) [Link] Err... folks, I'm all for open specs (and standards too).
But.
Yelling about that is not enough.
If nvidia's management/lawyers consider their IP worth the trouble of supporting their own CS driver themselves, then users need to reiterate the demand regarding other archs/platforms (remember, it was Linux/x86 only at the very beginning).
I understand that it would be the best to have specs too *but* seeing how *exactly* people are having weird fun with ATI cards and a free driver (remember that fglrx doesn't even run on xorg?) -- it's still not enough even if being prerequisite.
So yes, I buy nvidia and bother nvidia. So far it works better than anything else including yelling out there.
Interview with NVIDIA Engineers (LinuxQuestions) Posted Nov 14, 2004 23:22 UTC (Sun) by uriel (guest, #20754) [Link] So a powerbook is supposed to be a "server"?
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